[salvage] Improving my LS's efficiency. Also Sch.

[Amele]

in SSR I just pull all six at once with phalanx2 and two healers (rdm and either whm or sch)

typically we go: rdm; brd; healer; for magic. our gaiters is actually a monk so he mostly uses them for kiting on later floors (makes LAC easy as hell heh.)

[Jowah]

(makes LAC easy as hell heh.)

Hope he doesnt get charmed with gaiters on lol

[Amele]

Hope he doesnt get charmed with gaiters on lol

is using an earth staff at the time that he'd be running around lol. (has a macro to hit when LAC turns, equips gaiters and earth staff; visible gear change unlocks him so he can start running away faster too)

it is pretty funny when he hits a blackmage with the earth staff and ends up cursed though

[Ayn]

Hi there. A lot of other people touched on the points you asked for, but this one stood out to me:

Also as soon as it's high enough I'll probably start coming sch. What advice do salvage groups that use sch have to offer me?

We have a 75 BLM (also 75 DRK, 75 SAM. . but you know how it is with mage jobs) who recently capped out SCH. He seemed eager enough to use it but didn't force it like some obnoxious people. One day I finally just asked him "How do you SCH nukes compare to your BLM nukes?"

He told me (maybe other scholars here can really elaborate) that unless he was doing AMII, his Tier IV nukes were on par or slightly better than his BLMs.

Anyway, that story aside, we've been taking him as SCH instead of BLM to Salvage; which on our lower runs means no BLM whatsoever. It's really worked out beautifully. If it's a run where I can't get a WHM (or rather, or WHM has to fill in our RDM or BRD) there's enough healing power between SCH and RDM to get the job done easily.

From what he told me, to maximize SCH's efficiency they need magic (duh) abilities (duh) HP (for the refresh ability they have) and SJ.

I don't think I've put him as BLM in ages, so if it's a choice between SCH and BLM, I think you'll be fine on SCH.

[Wolfknight]

really for abilities I would reverse your ability order except in arrapago[where counterstance does more] because sam is much more dependent on weapon skills for damage than monks since they weapon skill more from store tp/mediate/etc, so should increase your kill rate.

[Amele]

really for abilities I would reverse your ability order except in arrapago[where counterstance does more] because sam is much more dependent on weapon skills for damage than monks since they weapon skill more from store tp/mediate/etc, so should increase your kill rate.

we give a weapon and ability to a monk and sam each, you're unlocking monks first on 80% of the other gear and asuran is less dependent on stats than gekko - so I like to have one monk mostly online so he has good hate tools right away (sainti, decent ws, chi/cs/etc) and we generally cs tank every first floor since nothing really hits hard through phalanx 2. (you should see how dead wamouracampa get when you gather them all up and supertank them while the rest of the melee assist you heh.)

unlock sam next over second monk to bring a non h2h melee online and start creating darkness for extra damage.

[Kaia]

A lot of salvage efficiency comes from eliminating 'dead time'. Make sure your melees aren't just standing around waiting for the next pull - if the next mob isn't already at your camp by the time the first one dies, move forward. Also, having a puller who's memorized pull orders, zone layouts, etc. is a huge benefit.

My group typically runs with MNK, MNK(or SAM), brd, brd, rdm, thf, blu, blm. I'll almost always give the first abilities to the SAM, since they can tank almost anything with seigan+third eye, which reduces MP usage. Magic usually goes RDM > BRDs > BLU > BLM > MNKs, unless other circumstances change things. With maxed phalanx2, even with counterstance up a monk will take very small amounts of damage.

Skillchains make the first floor of any zone a breeze, especially in arrapago. Lots of people are against skillchaining and prefer to spam TP.. but skillchain damage really is very impressive in almost every part of salvage.

As pretty much everyone has said, efficiency comes with time. Make sure cells get lotted/passed quickly, make sure melees are constantly on the move, and aware of the paths and pop conditions for whatever your targets are, and make sure everyone is prepared. Anyone in my group will tell you, I am not lenient with people who are unprepared. Everyone needs at least 1 non-equipment/non-magic RR, echo drops, ~10 potions, food. As your members become more aware of how salvage works, your group's efficiency will skyrocket. The thing that separates the successful groups from the unsuccessful ones is individual effort. If people are expecting their zone leaders to babysit them through runs, then they are just dead weight. Everybody should bring their A-game to every run - cells are out of the pool within 10-15 seconds, skillchains are 1-shotting most 1f mobs (in my group, at least), melees are able to sustain themselves with potions if the healer needs to rest, and nobody stands around twiddling their thumbs wondering what to do next.

[FailureMidgard]

I'd like to add out there that while some people may call a certain job setup ideal, you shouldn't go too far out of your way to force it.

A bard, rdm, or thief can all easily pull. Pick the one that is best at it, not the one that some other group is best with. If you have the thief pull, perhaps you can drop a healer from your group because the bard is there to help out one he gets sub. If your bard can pull and keep songs up (merit party like...with phalanx2), then that frees up the thf for DD. Or the rdm can pull, keep refresh and phalanx2 on people, the bard can cover some healing. In the end, it's gonna be different for each group which is best, but I strongly suggest getting the strongest puller as a player there. If your thief is really good at maximizing dmg, but a bad puller, don't try to force him to pull.

This goes for other things too. Any Melee job can tank all of salvage as long as they have Seigan or Utsusemi. My group almost always uses a War + Sam or War + War as tanks, though I've seen Drk and Drg do it as well, with no trouble whatsoever. Don't force people to play Mnk if they have a different melee job that is completely decked and merited. Pick the one that will kill faster/is better at tanking.

Play smart with what you have. Don't try to force a square into a triangle mold. There are limits to this though. Going without a bard or corsair or not enough healing is silly. But there is a lot of leeway past that, do what works for your group, not for other groups.

[Darknightleo]

Tips for SCH I have...As far as Cells needed, Ability, MP, Magic (magic being priority, ability being a very close second) and what a lto don't realize, HP. because of how Sublimation acts with your HP amounts, it sees your reduced HP at 50%, so unless you already have SS on sublimation will be capped the second you use it. Helixes are godsends against chariots and other mobs that take a while to kill or need to be kited. My cryohelixing on LBC lowered our kill time compared to the last run with same set up but I wasn't there by 8 minutes. Make sure your leaders know what SCH needs beforehand, because even though the job is almost a year old, not many people know much about it still. First run with LS on SCH I couldn't get an ability til it was free lot, after i explained about Arts and Strategems the Salvage leader put me up pretty high on the list for ability, which helped the group as a whole once i could actually nuke for more than a few hundred.
as usefulness with SCH vs. BLM (i don't want this to spin off into a huge SCH vs. BLM in general thing so please save it for the alla forums) i'd do SCH over BLM, it's true, with storms ect our nuking is on par and sometimes better than BLMs, i can't say that for things like kirin but in most cases we're about equal as far as teir IV nukes go, and our Helixes if you get in a good one over time do more than a teir IV nuke, anyway. Another benefit of SCH is that even though during a heated situation and with /blm isn't great outside -na and cure spells, a sch can switch to healing for a time (i'm viewing this as a SCH coming to nuke set up right now) if something happens or healers run out of mp
then we can switch back to nuking later. only downside is you need to be sure what to have SCH at, for as you know, our job is very sub job reliant ._. (damn you SE for no enfeebs, barely any enhancing, and no MAB traits!) For healing as SCH if you come for that (/rdm or /whm if you don't have /rdm, though in some cases where extreme healing is needed i'd take /whm) we're great, about as good as a rdm other than the fact we can't refresh others. with arts we have incredible mp conservation, which helps a lot for healing before the MP cells start to drop more, we have access to all the -na spells and our AoE buffs help to lower the overall damage a group takes. all in all, SCH is a very stable and nice job to have during salvage. (i got a little long winded, and probably left a few things out, sorry ;^^)
Also as to what Midgard said to pulling, really there are a few jobs that can. I donno if he uses angon or jump or somethign else each pull but our LS lead as DRG does our salvage pulls for most of a run.

[Crizto]

In what kind of order would you give Ability to SCH? I've never used one in a run, but I plan to level it very soon and take it in. Normally I'll be giving Ability to main DD's like the 2 MNK's, any WAR/SAM/DRK we have, then THF, then RDM and BRD. I'd like to know where I should fit it into the mix. My main concern through out the start of any run is always kill speed, so I'm wondering if it will affect it, or it can wait till Melee's have it. Only in a zone like SSR where healing may be an issue would I give it to SCH earlier for the AoE Stoneskin and Phalanx.

[Amele]

ability is basically the core of how scholar heals.

without it they're a C-skill loser with about a half-length spell list and no mp endurance.

with it they're probably the best early floor healer.

[megido]

Anything more than 7 people seems to be inefficient. I can't see where a SCH can fit in the standard 7.

mnk x2
brd + storm fife
blm
thf + th4
whm
rdm

Unless a SCH can fully replace a RDM or a WHM then I don't see a use for it. Since WHM gets magic relatively late, the advantage of a SCH with a early magic is diminished. Seven people is enough to do all NMs in a path + boss on every salvage zone.

In what kind of order would you give Ability to SCH? I've never used one in a run, but I plan to level it very soon and take it in. Normally I'll be giving Ability to main DD's like the 2 MNK's, any WAR/SAM/DRK we have, then THF, then RDM and BRD. I'd like to know where I should fit it into the mix. My main concern through out the start of any run is always kill speed, so I'm wondering if it will affect it, or it can wait till Melee's have it. Only in a zone like SSR where healing may be an issue would I give it to SCH earlier for the AoE Stoneskin and Phalanx.

A SCH will need abilities and Magic. If you give SCH the 1st magic, you lose haste and refresh at start and have to wait until they get their abilities before the can be more efficient than a RDM having early magic. You also leave haste to a support job like whm or rdm (if SCH is prioritized first) and it can be a while before you get that 4th magic cell (sch->brd->blm->rdm or whm) before you can get haste.

If you leave the SCH prioritized like a WHM there's a chance you won't get abilities altogether or get them so late it's a moot issue. Overall I don't see a real value to the SCH job in salvage unless you take more than 7 people in your run and that seems counter productive.

With this standard 7 you can do SSR (arguably one of the harder paths) Hammerblow > Powderkeg > Gyroscopic triple > Chelonian > Boss.

[Amele]

Anything more than 7 people seems to be inefficient. I can't see where a SCH can fit in the standard 7.

mnk x2
brd + storm fife
blm
thf + th4
whm
rdm

Unless a SCH can fully replace a RDM or a WHM then I don't see a use for it. Since WHM gets magic relatively late, the advantage of a SCH with a early magic is diminished. Seven people is enough to do all NMs in a path + boss on every salvage zone.

when we bring scholar I typically replacing the blackmage with him. In this configuration the whitemage(me) is usually the last to get magic, since the whitemage's healing isn't really needed until the later floors when the scholar transitions from early healing to late nuking.

we have successfully replaced the whitemage with a scholar as well (well, the rest of the group has. when I'm there I'm always on whm)

we tried replacing the rdm once but the loss of the 3mp/tick refresh for whm and convert hurt our healing power on later floors a little bit, which slowed us down.

edit: I consider scholar a great 8th to bring if you are confident you'll get enough magic. up there with sam, rng, and blm#2

[Crizto]

Anything more than 7 people seems to be inefficient. I can't see where a SCH can fit in the standard 7.

mnk x2
brd + storm fife
blm
thf + th4
whm
rdm

Unless a SCH can fully replace a RDM or a WHM then I don't see a use for it. Since WHM gets magic relatively late, the advantage of a SCH with a early magic is diminished. Seven people is enough to do all NMs in a path + boss on every salvage zone.



With this standard 7 you can do SSR (arguably one of the harder paths) Hammerblow > Powderkeg > Gyroscopic triple > Chelonian > Boss.

I don't agree with you that more than 7 people is not efficient. Many runs I do I always take a core 7 people with the jobs you've listed, but there are 12 people in my LS so sometimes we may enter a zone with 9 or 10, and for the most part runs always go much smoother with more people.
Take for instance SSR, a zone where you get a lot of cell drops. If you're going with 7 then many of those cells will go to rot but w/ extra people they do get used. It never hurts to bring an extra healer or extra damage to a run to make the travel up to the boss quicker. The only zone where I consider more people to be frustrating is in Z.Remnants just because it is sometimes tough to manage who gets what cells. However sometimes I do have to do that zone with 10 people and we do farm extra cells on the 1F, but we're able to split up and farm two wings at the same time, and just as quick as we would normally farm with just a main 7. In the end farming the rest of the zone becomes much faster and the boss even easier.

[megido]

The counter productivity comment was more along the lines of loot distribution. More people is just more competition. I've salvaged and played with you enough Crizto to know you're a good player and know what you're talking about. You're also familiar with how we do Salvages.

[As you know] since everyone in the shell has to run Salvage everyday as a LS event, more runs is preferred over bringing more people to a run. I'm sure you're familiar with the LS requirements. Every member has to have at least 2 jobs of the 6 we use. Having a template allows us to stick to a standard format and provide the flexibility to put a variety of people in jobs needed to do a successful run.

[Amele]

as is most shells will be under represented on at least one of the three secondary sets (skadi, ares, marduk) and having extra people who want those pieces doesn't hurt. etc.

in fact, all we need from skadi and marduk right now is about 1 head and 2 feet each.

obviously adding more people after morrigan and usukane is counterproductive if you're planning to stop doing the event soon, but I figure it's better to have a robust shell than minimize what you need.

[Kaylia]

Anything more than 7 people seems to be inefficient. I can't see where a SCH can fit in the standard 7.

mnk x2
brd + storm fife
blm
thf + th4
whm
rdm

I would rather have another melee than blm, or sch. Blm is decent for new group not used to mega, but they need too many cells to be efficient and they do nearly nothing.

We did SSR last run with 7 (war mnk brd cor rdm rdm, and thf), and managed to hit everything with fuck up on both 3rd and 4th floor. Pretty sure you could replace the blm with almost anything for decent result.

[Ahlah]

I will replace BLM with PUP. Automatons never run out of mp, cast hate-free nukes and usually land spell more consistently with fewer cells. PUP also has decent h2h skill + martial art trait.

I have done most of the salvage runs with RDM+WHM+BRD support. Our WHM just hit 75 lvSCH. We have been using RDM+SCH+BRD setup recently and I can't really say I'm impressed.

Stoneskinga/phalaxga/en-spellga only have significant impact on first 2 floors. Sublimation is overrated, SCH need hat/JA/HP cell to use sublimation and have no access to haste, the 40mp saved by RDM from casting refresh on SCH will be used to cast haste on 2nd tank instead. Unless SCH has Ixon cloak, WHM + noble tunic have access to more mp refresh.

SCH/RDM have no access to curaga spells,the biggest downside IMO. Strategems have 1min recast and SCH can only store 4 charges at lv75. Curaga every1 min can't keep up with gear mob TP spam and they still need strategems to cast stonekinga/phalanxga/enspellga. Light/Dark art both have 1min recast. 10% mp conservation is insignificant compared to WHM who have access to more cure potency gear+merit, higher tier regen+curaga spell and protectra + shellraV.

I don't play SCH myself but our WHM/SCH is very competent. SCH is a good backline job, personally I prefer WHM over SCH in salvage.

[Crizto]

I will replace BLM with PUP. Automatons never run out of mp, cast hate-free nukes and usually land spell more consistently with fewer cells. PUP also has decent h2h skill + martial art trait.

I have done most of the salvage runs with RDM+WHM+BRD support. Our WHM just hit 75 lvSCH. We have been using RDM+SCH+BRD setup recently and I can't really say I'm impressed.

Stoneskinga/phalaxga/en-spellga only have significant impact on first 2 floors. Sublimation is overrated, SCH need hat/JA/HP cell to use sublimation and have no access to haste, the 40mp saved by RDM from casting refresh on SCH will be used to cast haste on 2nd tank instead. Unless SCH has Ixon cloak, WHM + noble tunic have access to more mp refresh.

SCH/RDM have no access to curaga spells,the biggest downside IMO. Strategems have 1min recast and SCH can only store 4 charges at lv75. Curaga every1 min can't keep up with gear mob TP spam and they still need strategems to cast stonekinga/phalanxga/enspellga. Light/Dark art both have 1min recast. 10% mp conservation is insignificant compared to WHM who have access to more cure potency gear+merit, higher tier regen+curaga spell and protectra + shellraV.

I don't play SCH myself but our WHM/SCH is very competent. SCH is a good backline job, personally I prefer WHM over SCH in salvage.

I'm glad you posted something positive about PUP. There is a THF in my LS that has pretty much become a THF main for us, however he does have PUP leveled and fairly well geared. I may consider him coming PUP if we have another THF to give it a try.

[Valyana]

My Salvage group usually looks like

DD/Tankx2
THF
COR
BRD
SCH/RDM
-----
RDM

We've been giving SCH first Magic/Abi/Sub. In most zones this works well, but it's been a problem in Arrapago, where losing that first Abi cell really slows down early farming.