[salvage] Improving my LS's efficiency. Also Sch.

[ubermonkey]

Wondering if any of the experienced salvage groups here can give suggestions on improving my groups efficiency in general (rather than anything run specific), since I feel like we should be getting in a lot more stuff than we are. Generally we can't fit NMs and boss into the same run and such.

Our setup is usually something like this

sam/nin (changing to sam/war as soon as im confident he can actually do it)
mnk/nin
cor/whm or rng. Can come drg or pup.
Brd/whm. Can come whm
rdm/whm. can come war
whm/smn

blm/rdm or drk/sam (me)
thf/nin

Usually abilities go mnk > cor > sam and magic goes whm > brd > rdm or rdm > brd > whm, depending on run.

Blm whm and brd tend to get gear etc last, except ranged for brd. Melees get geared first with tanks taking priority, and mnk taking priority between them.

Generally we have the thf run about pulling stuff (which he could improve on) while I check for NMs and such. Cor usually runs to porters when its required. Occasionally we have extra people, but this is the core setup for the majority of our runs.

I'm not sure where we're losing time normally, I can account for about 5-6mins lost through people not showing initiative and moving on to a new mob and stuff like that, but in general we move pretty fast. I'm wondering if we could be using a better setup.


Also as soon as it's high enough I'll probably start coming sch. What advice do salvage groups that use sch have to offer me?

[Crizto]

Does your group have access to Vent? Always keep the pulls coming as long as MP allows for it. I don't know how experienced your members are, but as time goes on and they get to know the zones better the runs will speed up.

[ubermonkey]

Does your group have access to Vent? Always keep the pulls coming as long as MP allows for it. I don't know how experienced your members are, but as time goes on and they get to know the zones better the runs will speed up.

I don't have access to vent. We have a few really new people (brd and mnk have done 2 runs), but 3/4 of the group should be faster, we've run enough.

I'll keep shouting at the thf to pull faster :D

[pchan]

I think letting the thf pull is a bad idea. No Sj, no magic no range .. hmm. Have the rdm do it .

[Lujei]

Efficiency in Salvage really comes over time. Have everyone bring sneak and invis and, most importantly, RR. Explain to everyone that, no, you can't have everything unlocked, and sometimes you just have to move on. Try to set a time limit for each level if you really want to make sure you do everything you need.

Some things I'd suggest:
Don't have your THF melee gears.
WHM definitely needs SCH sub, Penury is amazing.
Stun Restoral.

[meson]

In our group, Mnk and Brd are really important players to make things go faster so being that those are your newest players you should have lots of room to improve.

I often pull as rdm in the zones that need pulling (arr,ssr). Phalanx is enough. In most other zones thf should have sj and magic by the 2f.

I wound give ur sam JA before Cor. We also like having our rdm and whm having magic before our brd. This may depend whether ranged appears in first chest, but even then it depends. If your brd doesn't have fife, I'd definitely go rdm > whm > brd.

Beyond the above, efficiency comes from zone knowledge. You shouldnt have to check on NMs because you should already know where and when they pop. You shouldn't have to run around pulling because your whole group should be moving (only a few rooms where this doesn't apply).

As for Sch, theres a rdm vs. sch thread somewhere I would recommend. I'm lazy and don't have a link for you.

[Meat]

Efficiency in Salvage really comes over time.

thead ova

[Valyana]

Move RDM or WHM to 2nd party so either your DRK or the THF can get melee songs/rolls. Swap back for boss.

[ubermonkey]

Move RDM or WHM to 2nd party so either your DRK or the THF can get melee songs/rolls. Swap back for boss.

If I come on drk the whm gets booted to the outside pt.

Is it worth the whm losing various refresh for thf to get melee buffs?

[Lujei]

If I come on drk the whm gets booted to the outside pt.

Is it worth the whm losing various refresh for thf to get melee buffs?

WHM is pretty self-sufficient on the later levels. Sanction Refresh with a Balrahn's Ring and refresh body is 3MP/tick alone. They have their own "Refresh" with Sublimination, and stratagems lower MP cost.

You'll want the WHM in the main party for the boss though.

[Daiiawn]

Your setup looks to be similar to that of my static. We run as

Main pt:
Mnk/nin x2
Cor/whm
Brd/whm
Whm/sch
Sch/rdm

Second pt:
Sam/war
Thf/nin
Rdm/whm
and often a 3rd mnk.

With that setup we can hit virtually everything we want to in every zone.
As a general rule of thumb, our cells go
Incus : Sam > Thf > Monks > Rdm/Brd > sch > Whm
Dup : Sch > Tanking monks > rdm > brd > other

Opacus : Mnk > sch > cor > mnks > sam > thf > rdm > brd > whm
If we are doing arra and we only get 1 op in chest we juggle things around a bit, usually giving cor ja's 2nd, and sch after tanks + sam

Prae : Sch > Brd > Rdm > Whm > Tanks > other
Again we juggle this around if needed, a 2 prae arra chest usually changes it to Rdm > brd > whm > sch > tanks

As far as sch goes, a i know a lot of people will say you can replace a rdm or maybe a whm with cor, but personally i like to have all 3. I usually play sch now (lolblm), and find with 2 other healers i can concentrate on keeping all the buffs up for the party (especially usefull on bcc) and be there if the shit hits the fan. The extra damage you can get from enspells alone early on makes sch very useful. But i would never replace the whm with a sch as cure V and pro/shell V is so nice to have, likewise with rdm and para2/slow2

[Shassira]

The best efficiency advice i can give:

Split your runs, do two areas at the same time. Every time you get 10 or more people (even 9 if you can handle it, but this may need some practice), simply split. Plan farming runs with groups making 6 - 4.

What you accomplish with this is basicly targetting more NMs on the same time. The downside is that you will need a rather varied job pool, but i seen from your members that you could pull it off. Ofcourse, this means more logistical problems as you will need to allocate people in the right parties so they get the chance to the right drops.

For the 6 man party: A 6 man party can do any zone and any boss without exception. Some bosses might be hard at first with just 6, but it's possible. Some others are simply equaly easy. Among the easy ones with 6 you get Battleclad and Armored. Harder may be Long-Bowed and Long-Armed, so you may want to plan full group runs for these two bosses and splits when you do the other two at first.

For the 4 man party: You can farm any area for all targets conceivable with 4 people. For example, Silver Sea is possible to target Hammer -> Powder -> GG3 or Hammer -> Dekka -> GG1 or doing some changes get to GG3, etc. Arrapago is the same deal, all targets minus 6F QQTHs, Bhaf you can farm 2 full doors without much problem or 3 doors if you exit early (unlikely to do 4F door ) and ZR may prove a bit harder, needing 5 people.

The bottom line simply is that by spliting a big group in two you are targetting more NMs than you normaly would if you cramp 10 people in one zone and can still retain your chances of doing boss fights. This is specialy true if your drops are pre allocated by your loot system. That is, maybe some people will simply win over a piece that drops due to their points or whatever rule you use, so the excess people in the area don't really have a chance to lot on such piece, making their presence rather useless in the end, when you could be doing the same with less people.

Split.

[Amele]

WHM is pretty self-sufficient on the later levels. Sanction Refresh with a Balrahn's Ring and refresh body is 3MP/tick alone. They have their own "Refresh" with Sublimination, and stratagems lower MP cost.

You'll want the WHM in the main party for the boss though.

I'd estimate I only get subjob cell on whitemage about 30% of the time but I'll admit I would get it more often if we went with 6 more than we went with 9. (I also screw myself intentionally on sj, preferring to give to other mages to make them more self-sufficient after we've sj'd all the melee) /sch is the best sub.

generally I have the bard pull.

the best way to speed up runs is to get people passing quicker and to tell the puller not to wait (but you need a puller with good judgment) - having good control of what your path and farming will be when helps too. and get the thief to flee to stuff as much as possible. etc.

oh yeah, designate one person (auxiliary mage like blackmage or bard) to be the one who checks all the chests, melee and primary mages should only check a chest for specific meds and only when there's a delay in the next pull or while someone is running up to the next floor.

[Slott]

Efficiency in Salvage really comes over time. Have everyone bring sneak and invis and, most importantly, RR. Explain to everyone that, no, you can't have everything unlocked, and sometimes you just have to move on. Try to set a time limit for each level if you really want to make sure you do everything you need.

Some things I'd suggest:
Don't have your THF melee gears.
WHM definitely needs SCH sub, Penury is amazing.
Stun Restoral.

Gears are weak to piercing. Your thief either sucks, or you're setting your pts up wrong by wanting your thief out.

Main thread guy, swap your whitemage and thf pts. Your thief will benefit more from songs/rolls, and with ballad + corsair rolls, your redmage should be able to cure alone. Make your bard pull, you're wasting your thief's dps by making him do it, while your bard sits in back doing nothing. Have your whitemage /sch. During a boss, swap one melee out for the whitemage (the thief i guess). You currently have 4 support in a pt for 3 melee. Make it 3 melee that get the support, like a merit pt.

[Uzor]

Personally, I would give SAM ability over COR. As for gear, it really depends on the gear your members have. I would give RDM head after MNK and SAM if he have duelist's chapeau, and body to WHM after the MNK and SAM as well, as noble's/cleric's really do help a lot. Generally speaking, though, the WHM can do his job just fine without any gear at all, even though it DO help a lot. And as long as he don't run out of MP, gearing up the melees first is generally better, as it speeds up the run overall.

As for pulling, put the RDM with the BLM in the other party to refresh him, and put the THF in the first party. Have the THF help with meleeing, and have the RDM pull. That way the THF can help deal damage, and the RDM can give the BLM more MP, as well as pulling. With a COR and BRD in the first party, the WHM should have no problem hasting everyone while keeping them all alive, and still never run out of MP.

Also, have the SAM sub WAR in all zones except for Arrapago, where he need Utsu for Mortal Revolution.

There is no "Do this for success" for all zones, as all zones require a slightly different strategy. And really, the best secret for success is to just get used to the zone and develop a strategy that works for the group you go with. The more you do salvage, the more efficient you get, even though you don't actually really change what you do.

[ubermonkey]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Naturally I didn't expect a magic "do this and win" solution, but any and all advice/suggestions help.

[Foustian]

The best efficiency advice i can give:

Split your runs, do two areas at the same time. Every time you get 10 or more people (even 9 if you can handle it, but this may need some practice), simply split. Plan farming runs with groups making 6 - 4.

What you accomplish with this is basicly targetting more NMs on the same time. The downside is that you will need a rather varied job pool, but i seen from your members that you could pull it off. Ofcourse, this means more logistical problems as you will need to allocate people in the right parties so they get the chance to the right drops.

For the 6 man party: A 6 man party can do any zone and any boss without exception. Some bosses might be hard at first with just 6, but it's possible. Some others are simply equaly easy. Among the easy ones with 6 you get Battleclad and Armored. Harder may be Long-Bowed and Long-Armed, so you may want to plan full group runs for these two bosses and splits when you do the other two at first.

For the 4 man party: You can farm any area for all targets conceivable with 4 people. For example, Silver Sea is possible to target Hammer -> Powder -> GG3 or Hammer -> Dekka -> GG1 or doing some changes get to GG3, etc. Arrapago is the same deal, all targets minus 6F QQTHs, Bhaf you can farm 2 full doors without much problem or 3 doors if you exit early (unlikely to do 4F door ) and ZR may prove a bit harder, needing 5 people.

The bottom line simply is that by spliting a big group in two you are targetting more NMs than you normaly would if you cramp 10 people in one zone and can still retain your chances of doing boss fights. This is specialy true if your drops are pre allocated by your loot system. That is, maybe some people will simply win over a piece that drops due to their points or whatever rule you use, so the excess people in the area don't really have a chance to lot on such piece, making their presence rather useless in the end, when you could be doing the same with less people.

Split.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you're talking about splitting up and doing two different zones, in which case I have to ask how the 4-man group would enter?

[Crizto]

Two people from the other group could do the red-dot trick.

[Shassira]

Correct, two people from the first team (6 man) help the small team enter the area by using the d/c trick, then they come back and enter normaly with theirs.

Unless you have access to an alternate account, you will always be bound to 6-X groups, even though in some cases spliting 5-5 would be much better.

[Jowah]

I honestly give magic to RDM first, then WHM, BRD and BLM. Pup at very end if you have one.
Ranged: cor and/or rng, then brd, rest.

Legs to whoever has kitty pants, with an exception on SSR, which 2nd or 3d pair goes to a gaiters BLM, to pull fomors later in the big room.

Generalizing cells lotting is kinda difficult due the variety of zones and role each job has.

We focus on MNKs (=tanks) and wars.
At least ONE voke is needed, for your puller sake. Rest can go /nin.

BLM pulls, can really do it w/o buffs if you know how pathing works and you have people that actually collaborate with you. If we have no BLM, then BRD pulls giving priorities to that rather than songs (and in both case the puller is always me, so durh)

SCH is AWESOME depend on the area. I'd honestly not bring it in Arrapago but it's a big YES in bhaflau. Very good in zhalyom and so-so SSR (depends on path really).

And dont do the reddot trick or you will make baby aphmau cry.