Police Linebacker

[Demosthenes11]

if he wanted to call the cop a tool he would have said tool

pawn in the game implies a whole different mentality that is lol'able

[Elmer the Pointy]

It's funny how easily some people get riled up. The video is intentionally just the bit of time where the guy is pushed. Throw on some little tagline, and every cozy suburbanite teen or college student who has ever received a parking ticket flies into a frenzy. Police brutality!! I'm moving to Canada! I mean it this time!

The right to peaceful protest is one of the greatest things afforded to every American. CM abuses that right through their 'leaderless mass' policy, so they can circumvent standard protocol. So fuck them and the bikes they rode in on.

At least you can drive around members of the Westboro Baptist Church.

[Beckwin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0flXSoqA5hM

guys don't complain about cops ever cuz that's unpatriotic

also marches, sit-ins, etc have all been disruptive in some way. and keep crying about CM abusing rights when a judge upheld them. and nice try at tossing labels around, but I've personally never had a bad experience with an officer (my only ticket is a photo enforced one, go figure).

[Tyche]

You're confusing disruptive with attention seeking. There's plenty of protests that aren't there to disrupt, they are there to shine a light on a problem. Did you really go to college? Did noone protest?

[Beckwin]

visual/noise stuff is a form of minor disruption. protest disrupts the normal flow of things to highlight a problem/issue/whatever. even picket lines often delay people from getting into a building, and demonstrations on campus tend to involve crowds in the middle of high-traffic malls/walking paths. roadside demonstrations can be viewed as possible safety hazards given how they can distract/cause rubbernecking. sit-ins involved taking all the seats of an establishment for hours and hours. marches and parades close off entire roads for considerable periods of time.

The job of the police is to protect both the protester and the bystander. In this particular case, the cop was doing the exact opposite of that for the protester. It wasn't even that long ago when that sort of flagrant violence by police towards protesters was commonplace, so I think this is something worth giving a shit about.

[Elmer the Pointy]

That's the point. People who have little to no bad experience with law enforcement tend to flip their shit over this stuff. It's like if you don't complain about cops on BG, America will be thrown into martial law.

I'm not even going to bother with the 'unpatriotic' nonsense.

I can admit the cop was in the wrong. I'm not disputing that. He got out of line and was punished. I take issue with people thinking that since one biker was pushed over, the whole fabric of society is coming apart.

One of the things I'm proudest to cite as an American is the Patriot Guard Riders. They block the view, and drown out the shouts, of Westboro members at funerals. I think it's great that not only can anyone protest (WBC), but that these people (PGR) found a way to fight back using the same tools we all enjoy. They do it legally, and they do it peacefully, in order to protect the memories of people who served us in combat.

Sure CM can protest. They can ride their bikes up, down, all around... doesn't mean I have to like it. And it doesn't mean everyone has to put up with it. Fuckers like Mr. 'Pawn in the Game' are just begging for someone to lash out at them. This time it happened to be a cop. Of course no one ever mentions how long he was standing in the street protecting CM riders from traffic beforehand.

[Tyche]

OMGz beckwin. Are you trolling me? There were a ton of college protests where people advertised the gathering, people stood there, handed out pamphlets, didn't disrupt a damn thing. You're just saying "they are disruptive because some people look at them!!!" You dumb yourself down in a lot of arguments to try to generalize. It's really weak.

[Tyche]

Here we go, here we go

Disruptive:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3153/...25a55f.jpg?v=0

Not disruptive (large, linked):

http://turlockcitynews.com/social/Ho...5%2008%202.JPG

Have a rational thought.

[Elmer the Pointy]

It would also help your case if there was a clear, central cause onto which they were trying to shine some light. "Bikes are nice?" "You're all pawns in the game?" I mean, they undoubtably create more pollution through their actions... so really what are they accomplishing?

[Beckwin]

That's the point. People who have little to no bad experience with law enforcement tend to flip their shit over this stuff. It's like if you don't complain about cops on BG, America will be thrown into martial law.

I'm not even going to bother with the 'unpatriotic' nonsense.

I can admit the cop was in the wrong. I'm not disputing that. He got out of line and was punished. I take issue with people thinking that since one biker was pushed over, the whole fabric of society is coming apart.

One of the things I'm proudest to cite as an American is the Patriot Guard Riders. They block the view, and drown out the shouts, of Westboro members at funerals. I think it's great that not only can anyone protest (WBC), but that these people (PGR) found a way to fight back using the same tools we all enjoy. They do it legally, and they do it peacefully, in order to protect the memories of people who served us in combat.

Sure CM can protest. They can ride their bikes up, down, all around... doesn't mean I have to like it. And it doesn't mean everyone has to put up with it. Fuckers like Mr. 'Pawn in the Game' are just begging for someone to lash out at them. This time it happened to be a cop. Of course no one ever mentions how long he was standing in the street protecting CM riders from traffic beforehand.

well pardon me, I didn't catch any of the "yeah cop was wrong" sentiment from you earlier.

Tyche: oh gimme a fucking break. are we gonna talk about protest strictly as a couple people with handwritten signs? Really? Maybe the protests you saw at your school boiled down to a few signs and a bunch of high-fives about gay marriage and abortion being bad, but shit that actually gets attention and occasionally results is a lot bigger, louder, and "disruptive". Protest is inherently disruptive, to varying degrees- even your happy couple with signs is a very minimal disruption in the normal swing of things, otherwise they'd simply publish an ad or hang some posters on bulletin boards/columns around school.

Wanna talk about protests that matter? Anti-war gatherings that took up a whole block, loud civil rights demonstrations, labor picket lines wrapping around auditoriums, immigration rallies where tens of thousands filled streets, angry preachers heckling passersby, church groups with megaphones downtown on weekend nights, and a smattering of people chaining themselves to things- and that's just what I've seen in AZ.

Wanna talk about protests that made differences in American history? Look at the civil rights and anti-(vietnam)war movements. Tell me that million-man marches, sit-ins, campus takeovers, etc weren't "disruptive" to anyone- really, I'd like a good laugh.

[Elmer the Pointy]

well pardon me, I didn't catch any of the "yeah cop was wrong" sentiment from you earlier.

Well, it's obvious we're both biased as hell on the issue. I was just highlighting the points that, for me, are a bone of contention.

[Tyche]

Theres a huge fucking difference between disruption and a huge amount of attention. You can't seem to distinguish the two, as you say, gathering attention is disruptive. Disruptive isn't a peaceful gathering of 50,000 people in a park, disruptive is fucking up traffic in some of the busiest streets in the world for no other reason than to disrupt. They achieve attention by being controversial and disrupting the flow. Your idea of "disruptive is disruptive, whether they are just causing rubbernecking or controlling traffic, it's all disruptive" is absurd. They can make a difference by sending 1,000 people out and park bikes in front of ity hall. Minimal disruption and the actions are heard all the same. As everyone has said, they're being dicks, that's their way to launder attention. Great way to protest!

Edit: You brought up civil rights protests, guess what, they obtained permits and there were lengthy preparations to ensure success. The million man march, the MLK speech, all that was well prepared and because of that, disruption was minimal. These guys go in and just fuck shit up for attention. Nice.

[Tyche]

And yes i know a judge told them they don't need permits. They fight tooth and nail to make sure they don't need permits (protest or parade, although their tactics could fall under needing both) so all the roads can stay open and they're protest to achieve attention by being dicks can go into full swing.

[Beckwin]

and the CM protests have been ruled to not require permits. and they do seem to have a goal, a combination of pro-bicycle accommodation/legislation and on a more general level, environmentalism. seems like trying to raise awareness/support for more bike lanes/paths and cooperation from motorists.

and I'm pretty sure every sit-in didn't have permits. you do recall how many arrests were made in civil rights protests? paddywagon after paddywagon filled with protesters to spend the night in jail. that's not even getting into the lack of permit-ness of the student campus takeovers.

[Demosthenes11]

protip: if you want me to be more friendly with people on bicycles, don't protest by running out in front of me on a bicycle

[Elmer the Pointy]

Just to add to the distinction I think Tyche is making...

It's nice to have the civil rights movement to reference when justifying peaceful protest, but I don't think it quite lines up in this case.

Let's take sit-ins, for instance, one of the examples you give. They were peaceful protests, albeit disruptive and the cause of more hate and violence. However, the intent was for African-Americans to assert their status as human beings, and to grab their rightful place in the classic statement that "all men are created equal." They were fighting for their God-given rights.

Now, compare this to Critical Ass. They perform peaceful protests, which are disruptive and generate ill will. For the sake of argument, let's just say "disruptive = disruptive." So what we have left is the goal. Bikers already have the right to ride on the road. They have right-of-way laws, they are free to roam wherever they choose. They are free to forego the use of automobiles, motorbikes and mass transit in order to do their part for the environment. Where's the issue?

What they are doing is forcing their lifestyle onto everyone else. They are intentionally making other lives difficult just to prove their self-assured superiority... and that is where the analogy to civil rights protesting falls apart. There is no move for social change here, it is just an inconvenience so they can thumb their nose at the pathetic masses who need fossil fuel-based contraptions to get to and from work. The idea that everyone needs to "wake up" and just ride bikes or walk is absurd and condescending.

No one in America is forced into a certain mode of transportation. Critical Mass however, tries to force people out of one. It's this attitude that made a cop en passant a biker, which is a marked improvement over hosing people down in the street, to further the comparison.

[Tyche]

and I'm pretty sure every sit-in didn't have permits. you do recall how many arrests were made in civil rights protests? paddywagon after paddywagon filled with protesters to spend the night in jail. that's not even getting into the lack of permit-ness of the student campus takeovers.

There's a small difference between fighting for civil rights and fighting for bike lanes. Let's not make these huge leaps for correlation purposes. I used the civil rights examples above because I was trying to provide an example of a massive, difference-making protest with minimal disruption. I'd never make the leap to compare cyclists and civil liberty protesters.

And depending on the scale of college campus protests, the school, and the city...there's just so many factors that affect that that I won't even touch it.

Edt: You really did just make that leap. Jesus christ.

[Beckwin]

protest is protest. jesus this, jesus that, stop trying to cherrypick because you don't like this particular cause. so what, do you approve of Officer Dickhead's actions because you don't like what these guys are protesting for? where the hell are you trying to go with this really piss-poor attempt at justifying this guy getting checked onto the curb and jailed for 26 hours?

I can't fucking stand the racist, homophobic preachers/religious groups that come onto campuses with megaphones heckling people and displaying pretty damn vulgar hate messages, but there's no denying that they're protesting, and they don't deserve police brutality/arrest/jailtime for it.

[Correction]

Protests that make me late for work cost me very real dollars out of my pocket. I have a really hard time swallowing your argument that all protests weigh equally on merit and that I shouldn't feel satisfaction when the obnoxious ones with horrible execution on a right they already have get their comeuppance.

How you get your message across and what that message is does in fact allow for one protest to be more valuable than the other. You're acting like all protesters are sacrosanct and I should celebrate the fact that they make me late for work, clog traffic and basically ruin my day.

[Tyche]

Huge difference between not liking the cause and not liking the means. The cause is fine, their means of protesting the cause isn't. But thanks for more absurd comments. And no, protest is not protest. Fighting for the right to not be discriminated against isn't the same. I'm kinda sorry so see it as that. Forgive my hypocrisy for being a bit more sympathetic to racial biggotry than to bicycle paths. It's different, it just is.

Edit: To give you prospective on insight. I'm, obviously, hugely pro-life. If a bunch of pro-life dickheads disrupted my day by riding bikes around heavy trafficked areas, I'd be pissed. If your riding bikes around because your race has been oppressed for the past 1000 years, I'll be a little less stressed, a little less pissed, I'll eat that one. Why? As I said, it's just different.