Cerberus Mantle NQ over Forager

[Oulanbator]

He wasn't saying it doesn't generate more hate. He said if you're being out DD'd that person will have hate and that enm+ won't make much of a difference anyways, not that it didn't generate more. If someone's stomping your damage into the ground, 99.5% chance they're going to have hate over you.

Well, that's an extreme case.
Given even investment in gear and merits, a Mnk will always out damage my Nin. He's not going to destroy me on a parse, but he will deal a bit more damage.
Now tanking wise, that's another story. On a semi long battle (like chariots) hate is quite even, because I made investment in gear like cerb or enmity merits.
I'm not saying I'll out-tank a Mnk on a chariot, that not true, but enmity compensates the damage I can't deal, hence make tanking with a mnk balanced and efficient.
I tried to remove the cerb mantle and enmity macroed in actions, definitely saw the difference.

So yes, to me enmity can make a difference.
It's not gonna do anything if someone is destroying or destroyed in a parse or have decisive advantage in a battle ( like piercing weapons on flying mobs).
However, when you are doing small adjustments to balance a team, it does matter a lot.
Talking about Sam, I'm not convinced TA/SATA in cerberus mantle over foragers will make a difference for hate management because we're talking about one hate spike. However, I'm quite sure meleing with a cerberus will make a real difference ( to the point I'm wondering if the damage bonus on cerb+1 is worth it compared to the enmity gained... gotta watch the two edges of this blade imo).

Up to everyone to make the adjustments in the way they consider the better, and up to everyone to decide if they want to adjust or show off by wearing a status item.

Though, keep in mind most DDs aren't Rukenshin.
Most people don't destroy parses, and many teams don't center hate on a Sam. Many DDs will not be able to center the majority of the hate on themselves, won't be prepared to resist physical or magical attacks, won't be on top list to be hasted/cured or to have status effects removed... and in these conditions, it's even worst to make the decision that will lead them to pull hate instead of the decisions that lead to a smoother event.

[ringthree]

Well, if you don't have voke, and purely getting hate back through normal attacks, assuming the game doesn't do something stupid like having you miss because you were wearing Foragers instead of Cerb, someone attacking a mob and the chance of gaining/not gaining hate back solely through the difference in one back piece is very very slim. It's probably less than 1% of the time where you would be lucky enough to hit that window, and how many times in a Salvage run do you even have to gain hate back from a mage's stupidity?

It's not like having emnity+1 is going to give you 1% chance of having you gain more hate, we're talking about a sliding window here. On one hand, you have something that would get you hate regardless of your emnity, +/-, and on the other hand, you aren't able to get hate regardless of what you do at that point in time, because your hate tools weren't enough. Somewhere in the middle lies a very small window where that difference in emnity shows. The window is a needle in the haystack, and all the emnity in the world just makes it a nail instead of a needle.

This whole game are just varying degrees of very small windows of difference. We are not really disagreeing at all, as I have said that I don't use the Cerberus Mantle anymore for Salvage, I am just saying that it is a case where it is a viable option.

If your only hate gaining tools are your fists then +3 enmity is probably going to help more than +3 attack is all I am saying. Does it matter enough to go out and get one if you don't have one? Nah. Use one if you have one? Maybe.

[RKenshin]

Well, that's an extreme case.
Given even investment in gear and merits, a Mnk will always out damage my Nin. He's not going to destroy me on a parse, but he will deal a bit more damage.
Now tanking wise, that's another story.

Yeah, because a NIN provokes lol.

You're not just dealing flat damage, you're also using hate gaining abilities. Which isn't what I was talking about.

On a semi long battle (like chariots) hate is quite even, because I made investment in gear like cerb or enmity merits.
I'm not saying I'll out-tank a Mnk on a chariot, that not true, but enmity compensates the damage I can't deal, hence make tanking with a mnk balanced and efficient.
I tried to remove the cerb mantle and enmity macroed in actions, definitely saw the difference.
So yes, to me enmity can make a difference.

Once again, of course since you're using hate gaining abilites vs a MNK doing strictly damage.

I'm just going to leave it at that, as the rest is just repeating what was said by myself/others in various ways.

However in the end I think we're debating different things, and while I don't agree I don't really want to get into that topic.

[ringthree]

The only time you should even lose hate in salvage is if you get hit with homing missle (which you shouldn't) or after getting brain jacked and even then, its pretty simple get get my hate back.

Aren't really talking about bosses, just talking about general pulls, I specifically have SSR in mind when I am talking about this. Lots of pulling of gear and gears, which can do a bit of AoE damage, that can cause a mage to use Curaga. It was under these circumstances that I considered using the Cerberus Mantle, and I found it to be pretty decent.

I generally agree about Bosses, and though getting hate back after a Brain Jack is "pretty simple" as you say, when it is hitting a mage and you are running after it, or especially if your mage stops to let you hit it to get hate, then one of those tiny windows of difference can really matter.

[SamanosukeShiva]

Here's a perfect example of how small amounts of enmity gear will NOT affect hate in a HNM situation.

When my LS was doing ZNM cerberus we had a few RNGs with us. ZNM Cerberus is incredibly weak to ranged attacks. One of our RNGs was having problems repeatedly pulling hate off of the tanks so at one point went back to try replacing some of his gear with -enmity, including borrowing my novia. In the end he had around -18 enmity and guess what? He still pulled hate. The only solution was for him to hold back on his damage. Enmity gear did nothing.

I agree, got -21 enmity on my RNG enmity set up and it does jack shit on ixion ; ;

[Sylphet]

Nah, I mean I don't have tons of people constantly cure bombing me as if I'm always on the verge of death, like some posters have insinuated!

It means you have 2 people (BRD and WHM or RDM usually) cure bombing you

Seriously though, he's not AS much of a sponge as he could be. One of the things that Lhexh says about our ls but doesn't come out as much publicly is that we put a tremendous amount of pressure on our mages.

An example of this is in salvage, where for our team all gear (with very few exceptions) goes straight towards gearing up the DDs with mages getting it dead last. Ideally, by the time we get to the boss, mages have most gear but it doesn't always happen. Healing two relic DDs, and one to two very strong non-relic DDs when you're half geared is really not easy. In that situation we rely heavily on the DDs ability to keep hate. Things go very wrong very fast if a mage dies in that situation. Maintaining hate on the melees is critical and since they're all fully geared and we're not, they actually have more control over that. (Collaborator helps out tremendously though - THF should be using it on main healers/support for salvage bosses whenever it's up).

So in the traditional sense, we don't have as much support as most LS would prefer for non-utsu DDs. It's not easy but the rewards are being able to accomplish a lot with few people. I also want to clarify that our LS is not Ruke-centric. I use his name because he was the center of much of this but I really want to point out that we have other extremely good melee DDs in our shell who just aren't as publicly known who know how to work together to balance hate which is extremely useful. There is no one person who magically makes this shit work. It's the result of several skilled players working together.

This is as much a testament to the unsung heros of BtL, our mages as it is for our poster boy DDs. We don't 'win parses' but the best DDs and tanks in the game can't do anything without good support behind them. It's a team effort that works best when everyone understands enmity dynamics for a given situation.

This diverged a bit more than I intended from what we're supposed to be talking about but I think it's still applicable to the overall theme!

[Tubbers]

Even better. What is Kaeko doing in this argument ?
Kaeko haven't tested the enmity generated from damage this far. Melee hits, weaponskills, nukes, magic bursts...
You can think that enmity doesn't make a difference with meleing, but you cannot prove this is true according to Kaeko's researches.

Everyone knows there is a relation between damage dealt and enmity generated. Since there is a relation, enmity+ gear can affect the enmity generated, but there are no proofs yet in one sense or another.

Wow, maybe you should read the Enmity testing thread. From page 25:

Also, knowing the damage dealt enmity for level 75 leads to some pretty interesting things...

The mods on a level 75 mob are CE Mod = ~1.54, VE Mod = ~4.62.

Assuming no enmity modifications...

On a level 75 mob, a DD will instantly cap VE with any attack dealing more than 2165 damage.

On a level 75 mob, a DD will cap CE after 6494 damage assuming no CE loss due to damage taken.

I think this shows why PLD Invincible is not that effective with big DD's present. It also backs up the effectiveness of DD tanking when possible (for instance, on Salvage bosses).

I still need to figure things out for a wider range of mobs to get the values for mobs over 75 (the most pertinent considering you normally fight things in the 80s endgame).

This pretty much speaks for itself, and only confirms my belief that you have no idea what you are talking about. Ruke does a pretty damn good job of researching things, and I would say his experience is far more valuable than yours. Using Kaeko's equations it isn't hard to see why +3 or +4 or +12 enmity will have very little affect on a DD.

The reason I'm angry is NOT because of the way you play. I think you are one of the rare wise players that exist since you recommend using Foragers on DD jobs instead of being lazy and using Cerb cause it's free (w/e).
Problem is the fast conclusion drawn from your post was "enmity doesn't matter", while it certainly does matter to some point... it even goes against your own point of view.

Considering your status, you need to be more prudent or clear when expressing yourself, because wether you want it or not, you have some influence, some people read you as a guide to play, and you cannot let this influence go the wrong way.
I don't know, make a mule and post incognito maybe ? ( and compare the reaction of people, might be interesting for you as well )

You entire reason for posting makes almost no sense to me. You think it is rare for someone to know that 3 attack will make a difference? I don't get it, you don't need to be Rukenshin to know that +3 attack > +0 attack. In addition Ruke knows enmity makes a difference (he has an enmity set for SAM voke for crying out loud), he is saying that FOR MELEE DAMAGE, it is an extremely small difference that will not affect things compared to damage delt.

And please, the only one who seemed to misunderstand what he was saying in this case was you. Ruke isn't god, he's just a smart dedicated player. If Ruke told you that castrating yourself would increase your parser damage by 5% would you? I would hope so, but no, you wouldn't. Likewise telling him to post incognito is also phenominally stupid, most people would probably respond "You sound like Rukenshin."

btw, Sylphet your signiture made me lol hard, is that an in game SS or shopped?

[Sylphet]

Not shopped! I'm very proud of that SS. If you look closely you can see that all of the taru's have slightly different gear.

Edit: well it's a tad shopped but just to make the sunset in the back a bit prettier.

[Oulanbator]

The mods on a level 75 mob are CE Mod = ~1.54, VE Mod = ~4.62.

Assuming no enmity modifications...

On a level 75 mob, a DD will instantly cap VE with any attack dealing more than 2165 damage.
On a level 75 mob, a DD will cap CE after 6494 damage assuming no CE loss due to damage taken.

The red part in bold is what we are currently talking about... enmity modifications >.>;
Also, we are talking about lv 75, which means Decent challenge mobs . . .
We also saw that the CE modifiers lowers as the level difference between the player and the mob tightens.
Maybe we can even expect some change once he starts testing mobs in the range of merit parties. Maybe we can even expect huge changes if there is a lv correlation function applied to enmity ( though, these are suppositions).

Using Kaeko's equations it isn't hard to see why +3 or +4 or +12 enmity will have very little affect on a DD.

Well, it is definitely too early to apply any equations to actual gaming, because honestly no lv 75 cares about any kind of hate management on DC mobs >.>

You entire reason for posting makes almost no sense to me.[...]
If Ruke told you that castrating yourself would increase your parser damage by 5% would you? I would hope so, but no, you wouldn't.

I post for people like you, people that blindly follow Rukenshin as a new Sephiroth, trying to be copies of the man with the black cloak, people with actually no clue about what they are talking about jumping in the battle to shield their godly Rukenshin...

Ps: thanks for the link, I usually don't check the enmity thread on BG, though I check his LJ quite frequently.
Good info there thans dood

[Kaeko]

My enmity testing just generates numbers; it doesn't tell anyone what is "best". The numbers generated are supposed to be used for people to argue their case either way, so I don't think you can conclusively say this test proves you should do THIS or that.

Also, all enmity testing aside and just based on playing this game for way too long, I agree with Ruk on this. Melee DDs produce so much hate when well geared nowadays... merits or endgame... +3 enmity isn't a huge deal. I'd personally just disregard the stat as a DD; I know I essentially disregard this on my BLM when choosing nuking gear as well.

I think the argument was that the 2 mantles have identical stats (I have no idea if this is true or not) but one has +3 enmity on it so it's bad because you'll pull 3% more enmity. Technically this is true, so if they truly are the same and you want to nitpick and don't want the +3% more enmity (practically insignificant but most things people care about are), you could go Forager. SAMs can tank extremely well nowadays though so you may even want that +3%.

Best answer I've seen though - Someone said it saves them 1 inventory slot because they use Cerb to tank in on another job anyway. Definitely go Cerb if it saves you a slot.

[Max™]

http://www.ffxiah.com/item.php?id=13690&sid=6 500k

http://www.ffxiah.com/item.php?id=13646&sid=6 150k

As for enmity, iVoke, sometimes randomly, gotten myself killed in Dynamis when, for some reason while weakened, I provoked a Goblin's Slime... don't ask me why, but sure enough it bolted over and pounded me flat...

That being said, why are DD's so scared of hate?

In a merit party, tanking is ezmode, in an event scenario, either your tanks are going to be capping out on hate, and you'll have to work hard to get it off of them, or you'll be tanking with appropriate support.

As Sylph said, tanking is all about the support you have, I've tanked some absurd things, including face tanking Kirin during a zerg and not dying, to which I immediately commented 'You guys heal better than Jesus. <3'

[Tubbers]

The red part in bold is what we are currently talking about... enmity modifications >.>;

Wow, honestly. Not even going to comment, anything I say will be too harsh.

Also, we are talking about lv 75, which means Decent challenge mobs . . .
We also saw that the CE modifiers lowers as the level difference between the player and the mob tightens.
Maybe we can even expect some change once he starts testing mobs in the range of merit parties. Maybe we can even expect huge changes if there is a lv correlation function applied to enmity ( though, these are suppositions).

Are you implying level 75 mobs are DC to level 75 players? Last I checked that meant EM. But I digress, the point is you owned yourself saying we don't know the formulas. Kaeko is probably very close to cracking it completely, and it is not unreasonable to apply these level 75 mob formulas to merit-level mobs to get a rough estimate.

Well, it is definitely too early to apply any equations to actual gaming, because honestly no lv 75 cares about any kind of hate management on DC mobs >.>

No it isn't too early, it is a perfect time to apply these and see how they match up, so that further testing and narrowing can be done to find a general formula. It's a perfectly good rough model.

I post for people like you, people that blindly follow Rukenshin as a new Sephiroth, trying to be copies of the man with the black cloak, people with actually no clue about what they are talking about jumping in the battle to shield their godly Rukenshin...

Ps: thanks for the link, I usually don't check the enmity thread on BG, though I check his LJ quite frequently.
Good info there thans dood

Several things. I don't blindly follow Rukenshin, and I most certainly do not follow him as if he were Sephiroth. When I first saw the name Rukenshin, I thought he was probably some lamer who liked Rurouni Kenshin a little too much, but his posts and LJ entries have shown his worth, in calculations and inctricacies about playing style. Further more, I don't really follow him at all. If he say something I agree with, I'll agree with it, otherwise I don't. I've never even talked with him aside from maybe 4-6 posts on BG and a similar number of LJ comments. I don't even play melee jobs 99% of the time -- Sylphet's "you can cap stoneskin on BRD" post has been more useful to me than all of Ruke's tomes. I'm not even shielding him, I'm trying to point out to you that not only have you misunderstood the entire point of his and several other posts in this section, you've pretty much been an ignorant jackass.

I'm not the one who has no clue what they are talking about, you are.

[RKenshin]

Hay I first came up with this name when I was like 14/15.

And since then its just stuck. I'm bad at making up names... Before that the most creative thing I'd do is my first name with some numbers after it.

Although I'm so used to being called Ru or Ruke now, I'm probably just going to keep the name Ruke in the future.

[Tormentormike]

Here I was thinking you just used that show on Cartoon Network "Rurouni Kenshin"[sp] and just combined them to make Rukenshin!

[RKenshin]

/continues to derail

I did. D:

First game I used it in was America's Army back in the day. I had my usual firstname### name at first, but I sucked so bad when I first played that game that I was embarrassed to use it... So I changed it, first thing that came to mind was RK as I was watching it at the time.

Tried a few different combinations, most were taken, and ended up going with Ru-Kenshin.

Down the road just about everyone that played the game regularly knew of me lol, part of keeping that name in FFXI was hoping I'd meet some people from AA with it.

[Max™]

Thus you're Ruke for good!

[Sylphet]

@ Tubbers: I thought exactly the same thing too the first time I saw him: God how lame. Someone likes Rurouni Kenshin way too much and is probably too retarded to realize that Rurouni isn't his first name.

Now for a bit of a personal diatribe.

I debated making this more or less mean and decided to make it less mean if for no reason other than to illustrate how one can make a point without being a jerk.

I wrote this rather long explanation of everything but decided that brevity was best ( :: POINTS THIS OUT NOT SO SUBTLY TO RUKE :: )

In summary:

Assuming someone is perfect or always right is rather stupid.
Hating someone because people think that way about them is far more illogical and even more stupid.

[Cream Soda]

Hay I first came up with this name when I was like 14/15.

And since then its just stuck. I'm bad at making up names... Before that the most creative thing I'd do is my first name with some numbers after it.

Although I'm so used to being called Ru or Ruke now, I'm probably just going to keep the name Ruke in the future.

lol, same with me when I created Vegetto.

[SamanosukeShiva]

i wanna stab ppls that somehow thinks i got my name from kenshin anime

[Cream Soda]

i wanna stab ppls that somehow thinks i got my name from kenshin anime

lol don't see who would think that. Samanosuke =/= Sanosuke