Physics-defying: Cheap power from water

[Jotaru]

That's the only way I fly without freaking out. No point in worrying about something you can't change; you're either gonna die or you're not! Hoorah..

[Woozie]

Yeah, it sounds like there is something fishy going on which he is hiding with obscure doubletalk...

Does the talk of reduced ground states make you uncomfortable, Woozie?

Yeah, energy states lower than ground just doesn't make sense to me. I would have to see the mathematics to see why he's claiming that it's even possible for something to be lower than ground state. Every time there's a mathematical state lower than ground state, the system usually can be shown to have a zero percent probability of ever being found in such a state.

Now, the hydrogen atom DOES have a degenerate ground state, but that just means there's multiple states with the same energy.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/3/5...daec9585b2.png

The lowest energy level is clearly corresponding to n=1. This is because n is restricted to be a non-negative integer (this can be deduced directly from the Schrodinger equation after taking into account boundary conditions). Obviously n can't be equal to 0. One reason is because there are n's in th denominator, and the other reason is because the energy depends on n. If n is zero, the atom has no energy (which would violate the laws of physics).

[Khamsin]

These stories have been bouncing around the news constantly for years. Not even a month ago it was a japanese company that supposedly powered a car with water. It was such an obvious phony, they had like a funnel in the back with a little cup they just effortlessly poured water into. Give me a break. Don't believe the hype till you see the technology for sale in a store with your own two eyes. If someone really does make such a huge breakthrough, you won't have to hear about it in some niche article on CNN.

Although it will be cool if, one day, we can power our vehicles and our homes off something that we need anyways as a necessity of life. Especially since its cheap.

[Max™]

No, you got that mixed up, I'm saying if it's really dropping electrons into lower ground states, then yes, scaling it up scares the shit out of me... because you're talking about sticking your fingers into the guts of the universe and poking around without understanding fully what might happen.

If it isn't adjusting ground states, and some sort of undisclosed chemical process with the catalyst or whatnot is producing the energy release, it's interesting, but much less worrying.

Basically, if he's adjusting ground states, you could say he's poking a hole in the vacuum, and draining some juice out of it.

A little hole might not be a problem, it might not be a problem at all even scaled up, but the way I see it, the vacuum is a waterbed mattress which we all sit on, and as he's describing it, he's draining some water out of it... so yeah, I'm a little uneasy with the thought of "what if he pops the bed?"

[Woozie]

But with that said, I hope it does somehow magically work because cheaper electricity is always a good thing.

[Woozie]

Basically, if he's adjusting ground states, you could say he's poking a hole in the vacuum, and draining some juice out of it.

How did you come to that conclusion?

[Khamsin]

On a slightly unrelated side topic, is it possible for us to construct something that would tear the universe apart? Is there any reason to even worry about human scientific development, on a universal scale?

Sure, we can blow ourselves up, but that just affects us. But can we create stable black holes capable of swallowing our solar system? Can we collapse the vacuum of space?

[shieldsofwindurst]

Well, regardless of if he's breaking physics or whatever, we'll all be destroyed by the Large Hadron Collider first anyways, right?

[Neosutra]

What a fucking joke.

[Jotaru]

I'm guessing yes Khamsin; its been stated as one of the possible outcomes of the LHC (well, the collisions...) ... albeit at an astronomically low probability. Could cause an effect that would destroy everything evar, or something. Even potentially creating strange matter could (eventually) destroy everything, as , given enough time, the matter would interact with all other matter, converting everything. /shrug

[Ramor]

Well, regardless of if he's breaking physics or whatever, we'll all be destroyed by the Large Hadron Collider first anyways, right?

WOO LHC

anyways, it's fun to read the responses to these claims from the science guys on BG, but this really would be some amazing technology if it works correctly

[Tyche]

Is the LHC the big bad ass machine at CERN i seen being built on the discovery channel?

[Moosey]

I wonder if this is any way related to a pirate ship wheel in frozen underground cave on a tropical island in the south pacific.

[Kuya]

Is the LHC the big bad ass machine at CERN i seen being built on the discovery channel?

It shoots particles and shit at you, bitch.

[Woozie]

I'm guessing yes Khamsin; its been stated as one of the possible outcomes of the LHC (well, the collisions...) ... albeit at an astronomically low probability. Could cause an effect that would destroy everything evar, or something. Even potentially creating strange matter could (eventually) destroy everything, as , given enough time, the matter would interact with all other matter, converting everything. /shrug

The strange matter hypothesis is unlikely. If stranglets existed, we'd most likely see "stranglet stars" in the skies. All it takes is one stranglet interacting with a star to cause the star to be completely converted into strange matter. If there was stable strange matter, then by this point the neutron stars we observe should instead be strangelet stars (since neutrons are neutral, they are most susceptible to interacting with strange matter. The positive nucleus of an atom would repel strangelets so that normal stars and planets are unlikely to be affected by strange matter).

[Tyche]

It shoots particles and shit at you, bitch.

It fuses 2 gay particles and makes baby particles. How bad ass is that?

[Quicklet]

Classical Quantum Mechanics

This made me chuckle.

[Max™]

As I recall, Woozie, the ground state of an electron is related to the fine structure constant among other things, and virtual photon exchange is a method used to describe the Coulomb Force which in this case would be violated by dropping an electron to a lower state.

There are some theories which relate the FSC to vacuum particles and so on so forth.

Back to what I was talking about though, if you dropped an electrons ground state, you would be forcing some of the virtual photons normally involved in the Coulomb exchange to "hang around", and would essentially be pulling energy from the vacuum.

Is it likely that he is even doing this? No. Is it likely that it could be catastrophic? No.

Most likely you would have to apply an amount of energy several orders of magnitude higher than any ever observed in nature to a single proton in order to trigger another vacuum phase change...

We can safely assume this, since there hasn't been a runaway phase change triggered so far.

It still leaves an uneasy feeling in the back of my head since I don't know exactly what method he is producing this energy with.

[Jotaru]

I never said it was likely.. In fact, I mentioned that it was VERY unlikely to begin with.. however, still a possibility..

Then again at that point I guess you could say that its possible a giant hole will open up in the sky and clowns will pour out til we all suffocate.. but still.

[drwaffles]

We're not nearly powerful or intelligent enough to even come close to being able to create or unleash something that could alter time and space in such a way that the very fabric of the Universe is ripped asunder, intentionally or otherwise. I don't know why some people actually worry about CERN and the like, the worst that could possibly happen is that the damn thing explodes or something.