Darters no longer have alliance hate?

[Seraph]

Aren't all limbus mobs like that?

Many of them are, but I am not sure if 100% of them are. I've seen a few Limbus wipes caused by people who have never heard of Solid Snake.

The best though, is when say a puller is on a different side of a Limbus zone, gets agro, dies somehow, and the mob trails all the way across the zone linking every damn thing. I've seen that once too, and I was pissed.

[Fogo]

It depends what you mean by alliance hate.

Typically ally/pt aggro means if someone aggros it, it doesn't matter where the rest of the people in the ally are, that mob is going to track down every single one and kill them unless they zone or log out (like proto-ultima, except he's just lazy and draws you in)

[fishstix]

Typically ally/pt aggro means if someone aggros it, it doesn't matter where the rest of the people in the ally are, that mob is going to track down every single one and kill them unless they zone or log out (like proto-ultima, except he's just lazy and draws you in)

Again, I've wiped/recovered on proto-ultima to know that it doesn't have alliance hate in the traditional sense. I've died and reraised without logging and without being drawn in while other people in my ally were still fighting and later died themselves. I think there's only one meaning to alliance hate: where the mob tracks down and kill everyone in the alliance regardless of any action/non-action taken if someone has hate on the mob. If you want to coin "alliance aggro" then go for it, but I don't believe the whole alliance gets aggro when you pop an NM. Unless NMs have to be taken on a case by case basis of whether or not it actually gives alliance aggro, another case to consider from personal experience; I've popped Ix'mnk on thf with the rdm, blms at the far square room where it's normally kited, if there's alliance aggro on popped NMs, Ix'aern should chase down the blms when I die after popping, but instead he returns to spawn. I would pop it and run, while not performing any action on Ix'aern itself, so it's indeed aggro, not hate there.

Have the things about DM actually been tested? Like now there'll be 2 types of sac pulls, one where the puller does it by aggro and one where the puller performs some action like /ra. I'm sure most people would attempt to sac pull it first by actually pulling with /ra or something, it wouldn't work and then they'd dismiss "sac pulling" as not possible. There's also the case of if the AAs have shared hate any.

Being resident TH4 whore, I've done lots of sky gods as thf and getting that free 400+ crit hit from a sata/hide hit, I know that hide does infact work after the god has been popped. It's weird though, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesnt. Maybe has to do with the aggro detection range or if different gods track by scent/sound/sight.

I'm not trying to flame you or anything, but what's your purpose in pushing your point about normal environment mobs having aggro on one person only. I can't think of any scenario where you'd be required to supertank an environment mob.

[Amok]

Fogo, your post where you quote mine wasn't very on point, I wasn't asking anyone to explain what any one term means. Your reaction to my post just reiterates what I've said before, a lot of people THINK there's this one very clear definition for whatever terminology and it just ends up cerating these long discussions where people aren't even talking about the same thing.

@fishstix
I've never been able to successfully hide from a sky god, but if you say it's possible I won't discount the possibility. Could be range related, I always had to use hide right before pop to get it to work.

My point isn't really about normal mob aggro. The reason I was hammering on that was... well, I don't remember why... The point I'm REALLY contending is that normal mobs are all the same and all aggro and hate workings can be explained by one generic model. It's also somewhat annoying that people still want to dispute that normal mobs detect pt members at the time the mob is attacked. Also that different families behave differently than others. I think that's highly unlikely. People attribute pt/ally wiping links like caveberries and darters to some type of special behavior they call "alliance hate" which as far as I'm concerned hasn't been proven. Only evidence being people that have been to DA way too often and therefore can't possibly be wrong. [/sarcasm] SUrely I could be wrong, but I'm hoping someone 'prooves' me wrong, and doesn't just tell me I am. Anyway, I'm usually not this vested in internet discussion. I think I'll just drop it until I or someone else brings some evidence of some kind.

[Shuemue]

Have you ever camped Fafnir for an extended period to doubt our primary evidence?

[Fogo]

My point isn't really about normal mob aggro. The reason I was hammering on that was... well, I don't remember why... The point I'm REALLY contending is that normal mobs are all the same and all aggro and hate workings can be explained by one generic model. It's also somewhat annoying that people still want to dispute that normal mobs detect pt members at the time the mob is attacked. Also that different families behave differently than others. I think that's highly unlikely. People attribute pt/ally wiping links like caveberries and darters to some type of special behavior they call "alliance hate" which as far as I'm concerned hasn't been proven. Only evidence being people that have been to DA way too often and therefore can't possibly be wrong. [/sarcasm] SUrely I could be wrong, but I'm hoping someone 'prooves' me wrong, and doesn't just tell me I am. Anyway, I'm usually not this vested in internet discussion. I think I'll just drop it until I or someone else brings some evidence of some kind.

So how about instead of contending what apparently most of us know to be true, take a friend out to various mobs and test these for yourself? should be pretty easy.

I.e. caveberries. have your friend stand in the same room as the berries while you aggro one and then either log out or die and see what they do to him. Then have your friend stand way back in the sack room and do the same thing. Watch their behavior. Then take the test out to say bhaflau thickets or caedarva mire and aggro one or two of the sapplings out there, with your friend one time close by and one time very distant and watch their behavior. I'm quite certain you'll see these two different groups of sapplings act VERY different. The same can be said of the other examples I mentioned, and various other groups of mobs here and there in the game. Test it for yourself.

[Max™]

It's vaguely related, and the most interesting example that I can think of which ALWAYS holds true.

Have a Bst charm a monster that noone else has touched, you can even have him charm it while solo.

Invite him to your party.

Bst teleports or warps, his pet will turn and attack you.

Now get the Bst into an alliance (I'll do this later) and try it.

[Tubbers]

Are you people being serious right now?

You likely just had someone in your party resting at the time. Normal monsters do not have alliance-hate, Darters do.

I'm 100% sure nobody was resting, considering I was playing all of the mage jobs at the time - 3boxing BRD RDM and BLM, in both accounts. Both mobs behaved exactly as darters did. I've also had two times occur where I accidentally dia'd darters (they had been up before window and I was trying to tab off of them, went AFK for a few mins, came back and hit spacebar + enter to see text lines), 2-3 of them came at me and killed me, and then they left everyone else alone.

I've seen darters rape alliances, but I've NEVER seen a darter exhibit undeniably alliance hate (talking a NIN + whatever in PT, NIN Mijin's darters in the pit while the other person waits at zone line to Aery). There is definitely a distance requirement for their aggro, and they are definitely not unique.

[fishstix]

Does this still happen if the bst is far away and warp/teleports?

[Max™]

Well, I know if works if you're just outside the range to be teleported, and I assume the bst can have his pet stay by you and run off to hell and gone and do it.

Gonna test it out when I get on later and see if I can determine it more thoroughly because it's WEIRD hate in that you do nothing, the bst who had hate on it leaves, so it turns and attacks a party member?

Also gonna see if it picks one member based on distance or whatnot.

[fishstix]

Oh! I tried doing something similar at the end of bird merit parties. I'd virelai a bird and then warp out, trying to get a party member charmed. Some other weird funky stuff is Aerns that reraise. If you run away right after death and it reraises, it won't attack you. However if you do this and it's not attacking you, but you run back fast enough, it'll start attacking you again. Something like death > run away > passive ~2 seconds > run back > attacks you again. If you leave it alone for enough time, it'll stay passive though, something like 10s? (i just pulled arbitrary numbers out of my head, idk exactly)

[Amok]

It's vaguely related, and the most interesting example that I can think of which ALWAYS holds true.

Have a Bst charm a monster that noone else has touched, you can even have him charm it while solo.

Invite him to your party.

Bst teleports or warps, his pet will turn and attack you.

Now get the Bst into an alliance (I'll do this later) and try it.

That is indeed a very interesting example. This piques my interest.

[Max™]

Ok, tested this one earlier.

We'll try it with some flies in a linking situation tomorrow, to try and totally reproduce the situation.

Friend on Bst75/Blm24, myself on War75/Dnc37, the two bees right outside Tav near the Op.

We were both in single person parties and allianced, I was within the monsters normal roam range.

He charmed the bee, and warped.

It targeted me briefly, then went docile, which was weird as hell honestly.

He came back out, I kept the same bee targeted the entire time of the test, we disbanded ally, he charmed the bee while solo, we got into a party, he warped, and it immediately aggroed me.

The weirdest thing was that it had an awareness of me in the alliance, but no hate.

It was facing him while charmed, and turned completely to face me with the aggressive stance (tail up/stinger aimed at me) before going docile.

So I'd say monsters know everyone who is in an alliance, and the darter situation is due to linking.

We will repeat this tomorrow in valkurm with the flies there to see if his alliance pet initial aggro will get me linked onto.

[Amok]

Since bees are sight mobs, which makes me think it might matter if it can see you when it's charmed. Was that the case? The turning to face you before going passive is really weird.

[Max™]

Well, that's why I'm going to try it with flies in Valk tomorrow, I also had him charm while outside of the party to make sure that wouldn't matter, and indeed when he warped while in party it attacked me.

So basically it became uncharmed just like if charm wore, then it turned and went for me.

Going to bring another person too, see if our distance matters, and if them getting hate and warping makes it go after me while I'm in an allied party making no action.

[Amok]

So basically it became uncharmed just like if charm wore, then it turned and went for me.

Having said that makes me sit up in my chair, that is interesting cus it kinda explains it. After your friend warps does it also say "The ... is no longer charmed."? I don't play around with BST much but I recall being a certain amount of distance away from the mob (when you can't see the HP bar anymore) will cause it to NOT chase you once it uncharms. That might be useful info for any further testing.

I'm guessing the instant the mob becomes uncharmed it does a little check.

Going to bring another person too, see if our distance matters, and if them getting hate and warping makes it go after me while I'm in an allied party making no action.

While you're at it, it might be interesting to see if it goes to the next person in line in the invite/leader order. I expect it will.

[Chen]

darters in the aery do have alliance aggro, don't see how this can be doubted seeing as myself(and i'm sure many many others) have seen someone at one side of the pit in DA attack a fly, and members on the other side dieing as a result.

amok, get a friend, split up in DA, you aggro and you'll see.

[Amok]

I intend to, eventually.

[soichiro]

Considering as a bard, you can sing songs while on the same paw as the rest of your party and NOT HIT SOME of the members of the party, this whole mechanism is fucked. Either it will or it wont, and theres no concrete way to know if it wont, so always assume it will.

And yea dont fuck with Kayos, he knows his stuff, even though he stays out of DA with the infestation known as the worst linkshell on asura ever, or 7/11.

[Fogo]

After your friend warps does it also say "The ... is no longer charmed."?

I'm not 100% sure but I think this message only shows on the bsts screen when a mob comes uncharmed, in which case the bst that warped out wouldn't see it unless it snuck into his chat log right as the warp spell gets off before zoning him. If I'm wrong though someone let me know please.