The Pickens Plan

[Amele]

Proved me wrong, didn't even know shit like that existed. Links please? I'd like to buy one tbh.

unfortunately, the only T-Zero Drive train with a large run on the market today is Tesla Motor's Roadster (Tesla Roadster) which is a luxury sport car.

they are using it to raise funds to do higher volume more affordable cars. the Model S is the next vehicle in the pipe, this will be a comparable model to BMW 5 series or Audi A6 and will have a similar price point. (around ~60,000USD well equipped) scheduled for production in 2010.

after the Model S, the next car will be a commuter style vehicle (exact body styling hasn't been determined but I'm guessing a coupe) and will cost about ~30,000USD brand new, comparable in price and performance to say, a ford mustang or a BMW 1 series.

all three cars are expected to have about a 200mile range. (the Roadster ranges from 200-250 depending on how you drive it, EPA combined cycle range is 221)

There are several boutique cars available based on this drive train but if you didn't know about them beforehand about as close as you'll get in the short term are the wikipedia pages about it. (starting at the Tzero itself is a good idea)

if you're looking for a full production electric other than a T-zero drive train, wikipedia has a good list here

the eBox (also T-zero drive train) is a good choice if it goes to large scale production (the total kit + xB would cost about 35,000USD.) at small scale production it's closer to 65,000USD and it's probably worth waiting for the Model S.

[Amele]

Fast as what, the typical commuter car? If 'It can go the speed limit.' was a convincing selling point of electric vehicles I can't help but think that alone would have sold it to the public 20 years ago. I'm skeptical of the performance numbers here...most reviews of both the prius and honda hybrids have marked mediocre performance at best. Passing other cars on the highway is a near impossibility.

I referenced in my above post but here we go:

Tesla Roadster: (apologies for links to sales, I wanted to keep the descriptions simple)

Acceleration: 0-60 in 4seconds (new reduction gearset phase 2 cars are 3.8 seconds)
top speed: (electronically limited) 125mph
torque: constant to 6000rpm and high until 13000rpm
range on a single charge: 220miles EPA combined cycle
charge time: 3.5 hours

and this is one that's already in production.

the reason for the electronic limit at 125mph has to do with efficiency and heat dissipation. going faster than 125mph severely reduces the range of the car because too much energy is lost to heat (similar to how running that high on a gas car reduces your range etc) and because no one needs to run a street legal vehicle past 120 anyway.

without the limit the car can exceed 240mph but with detrimental long term effects.

[archibaldcrane]

Electrics, generally speaking, have a greater potential for quicker 0-60 times than internal-combustion engines.

The Prius and Honda Civic Hybrids are comparable to other base 4-cyl engines for performance. I'm not blowing people away in my 2003 4-cyl non-hybrid Nissan Sentra either. They aren't racecars.

Interesting article about the possibility of using a Prius as a police car, and comparing the specs of the prius to the most popular current police cars.

It's not quite as powerful, but it can do the quarter-mile in the same amount of time as the Chevy Impala.

[Correction]

That car is way too fucking expensive. $100k buys me an M6. Or an XK, with change to spare. Or an Evo X, with LOTS of change to spare. I'll wager my left nut any of those cars drive better, to boot.

I'm sorry, performance still matters, and electrics have a long ass way to come yet before I'll even remotely consider one. I doubt I'm alone here.

[Amele]

That car is way too fucking expensive. $100k buys me an M6. Or an XK, with change to spare. Or an Evo X, with LOTS of change to spare. I'll wager my left nut any of those cars drive better, to boot.

I'm sorry, performance still matters, and electrics have a long ass way to come yet before I'll even remotely consider one. I doubt I'm alone here.

that car is comparably priced to the cars it performs against. did you bother to read past the price sticker?

and I'd like your left nut then because you won't find a gas car on the market that has the same torque profile at 0mph as it does at 80mph. (and torque is where acceleration and pickup come from)

there's a drag/track car with the same drive train known as the wrightspeed X1, which has beaten several 'supercars' (including the Carrera GT) in a rolling start drag.

rolling starts even -favor- the ICE engine over the electric.


edit: hell, the M6 is a 4.6 second car. that's 20% slower than this is. If your only complaint is that it doesn't get a top-speed over 250 because they decided to limit it to 125, my only response is that the roadster is meant for actually driving and isn't a track toy. If you want a track toy there's electrics that do that too, they're just not to market yet.

[Dolmen]

gasoline vehicles should be banned because they cause air-pollution and burning gasoline is a waste of an important industrial chemical.

and electric vehicles don't mean the end of sporty cars. the most successful electric plug in to date is a 3.8second 0-60.

Please note that I'm asking this because I really don't know, but can an electric vehicle survive a farm? Can one tow trailers full of livestock to slaughter, produce to market, hay bailer, harvester, etc...? The people that really need gas are the people that run this country.

Also, how are they supposed to purchase all new equipment if gasoline vehicles are banned? Banning gasoline vehicles would cause catastrophic results that would bankrupt so many. Again, I'm not attacking, I'm just wondering how you can say that. Also wondering about towing abilities of alternative fuel cars (namely electric).

[Correction]

Consumer cars have to do more than go in a straight, level line really fast from 0-60. Show me a proper road test of the Tesla and I'll change my mind, perhaps. 'rolling start drag,' indeed.

[Dolmen]

Consumer cars have to do more than go in a straight, level line really fast from 0-60. Show me a proper road test of the Tesla and I'll change my mind, perhaps. 'rolling start drag,' indeed.

The Tesla actually works, it just has a $100,000 price tag. =/

[Stiker]

The one thing that has always made me curious about electric cars is what to do on a long road trip? We aren't just talking charging stations along the road here either, but the need for charging hookups at hotels and such too.

Anyways, I do hope the future can move in this direction -- we need something besides oil running our cars for sure.

[Amele]

Please note that I'm asking this because I really don't know, but can an electric vehicle survive a farm? Can one tow trailers full of livestock to slaughter, produce to market, hay bailer, harvester, etc...? The people that really need gas are the people that run this country.

Also, how are they supposed to purchase all new equipment if gasoline vehicles are banned? Banning gasoline vehicles would cause catastrophic results that would bankrupt so many. Again, I'm not attacking, I'm just wondering how you can say that. Also wondering about towing abilities of alternative fuel cars (namely electric).

torque on an electric engine is better (dunno if you have much experience with magnetic motors) so. yes, the technology is capable of doing all of these things.

energy is energy, where it comes from isn't really that important in terms of how much work it can do for you.

in fact, with tractors specifically, an electric tractor would significantly reduce the weight required (higher torque means less mass is required in the tractor etc) and that would potentially cause massive efficiency gains.

you wouldn't have to breath gas fumes all day long either, and it would have fewer moving parts that could break.

with solar to charge it and a large enough battery system to smooth out cloudy days you could even do this completely off-grid, so you wouldn't need to keep a fuel reserve on site or drive into town just for gas. etc.

and I should've been clearer: when I say 'Ban' I mean new-production only. the only way to remove them from the road before they naturally end their life would be if we instituted some sort of trade-in program where 1 gas vehicle (used) was exchanged for 1 electric vehicle (new) - with the costs of the electric vehicle over the value of the scrapped gas vehicle being absorbed by some larger entity.

in towing, torque is what matters. - and electrics win on torque by a large margin.

[Amele]

Consumer cars have to do more than go in a straight, level line really fast from 0-60. Show me a proper road test of the Tesla and I'll change my mind, perhaps. 'rolling start drag,' indeed.

the tesla is for sale today and does the EPA combined cycle test at 256mpg equivalent.

and if you don't know what a rolling start drag does for acceleration profiles on an ICE you should do some research, a rolling start favors an internal combustion engine because standing starts lose energy to waste as you bring the engine up to speed.

electrics don't have this problem because their torque is already high a standing start with an electric vs an ICE wouldn't be anything close to a competition.



maybe it's not clear, electric cars are -not- anything close to hybrids.

edit: in case it isn't clear, the combined cycle test includes highway speeds and passing at highway speeds (up to 80mph)

cars with a similar performance profile to the Roadster get about 9mpg on the same test.

[Beckwin]

That car is way too fucking expensive. $100k buys me an M6. Or an XK, with change to spare. Or an Evo X, with LOTS of change to spare. I'll wager my left nut any of those cars drive better, to boot.

I'm sorry, performance still matters, and electrics have a long ass way to come yet before I'll even remotely consider one. I doubt I'm alone here.

100k for something that isn't mass-produced yet and is still relatively new. A few years and some manufacturing power behind it and the price should go waaaaaay down (not to mention that the 0-60 on Tesla is obscene for a commuter vehicle, lol).

[Amele]

The one thing that has always made me curious about electric cars is what to do on a long road trip? We aren't just talking charging stations along the road here either, but the need for charging hookups at hotels and such too.

Anyways, I do hope the future can move in this direction -- we need something besides oil running our cars for sure.

three in a row is some kind of record so I hope someone posts in between heh.

the answer is that the united states already has a nationwide 220V hookup network in place (RV Parks) back when the RAV4EV was in use this is how people moved over long distances.

doing metering here or at an electric hookup at a 'gas station' would be sufficient.

once we have 5 minute charging systems (Toshiba etc) it won't be necessary to do overnight hookups, but a hotel could certainly install them and meter them on your hotel bill.

[Amele]

100k for something that isn't mass-produced yet and is still relatively new. A few years and some manufacturing power behind it and the price should go waaaaaay down (not to mention that the 0-60 on Tesla is obscene for a commuter vehicle, lol).

this is a good point, every Roadster is custom built for each buyer.

the mass model should be out in 2010 at the same time the Model S is introduced. (which will be competing with more common luxury sedans rather than sports cars)

[Churchill]

gasoline vehicles should be banned because they cause air-pollution and burning gasoline is a waste of an important industrial chemical.

and electric vehicles don't mean the end of sporty cars. the most successful electric plug in to date is a 3.8second 0-60.

No one who likes cars wants to go 0-60 in a NykoRC. Not everyone who likes cars wants to pretend they're in the 5th Element.

no one needs to run a street legal vehicle past 120 anyway.

Again, etc. I also like how you reference a car that costs 4x what any of my cars did. No one is blindfolding themselves to this technology, and as a daily driver an electric car would be great, but to ban gasoline is lol. The other problem with electric cars is my main reason for not buying them, and that is even in my daily driver I prefer to have the option of speed. The best way to avoid most of the shit that could happen to you is to drive faster than the pack and get ahead or to be able to accelerate from a given position to safety. Electric cars can't do this.

[Churchill]

100k for something that isn't mass-produced yet and is still relatively new. A few years and some manufacturing power behind it and the price should go waaaaaay down (not to mention that the 0-60 on Tesla is obscene for a commuter vehicle, lol).

Because some company is surely going to lower their price out of good will.

Their "commuter" car idea which was what, their third option at present? That would be the car they sold comparable to the market.

(higher torque means less mass is required in the tractor etc) and that would potentially cause massive efficiency gains.

wot

[Beckwin]

Because some company is surely going to lower their price out of good will.

Their "commuter" car idea which was what, their third option at present? That would be the car they sold comparable to the market.

are you trolling or just retarded? I'm saying that with mass-production and a commuter model, the price is gonna be way, way under 100k.

[Churchill]

What do you think.

You aren't the only one who can troll to make a broader point.

They aren't going to sell that super zany insane crazy Tesla master turbo roadster for anything less than some retard will pay for it, and their commuter model which would be similar to a prius-camry level vehicle will be sold comparable to the market now for 20-30k.

I don't think I said anything much further from that for you to get uptight for. Is it because I'm back home in Arizona and your displacement back to Russia?

[archibaldcrane]

Hasn't really been brought up, but you can put a deposit down on an Aptera here in SoCal, which will retail for $27,000 for the 120-mile range full-electric (early 2009) and $30,000 for the 230mpg hybrid (2010). Electronically limited top speed of 95mph, 0-60 in an underwhelming 10 seconds, but if you don't see your car as an extension of your penis and don't prescribe to the ridiculous notion that the best way to avoid accidents is "accelerate to safety and stay ahead of the pack", there's your most eco-friendly affordable commuter option.

[Churchill]

Compete for amateur D1 slots and get some schools in before trolling my driving, thanks.