georgia and russia at war

[Linliel]

Georgia has been blanked out on Google maps @@;

Nah they just never had a mapping team go through. You can still see the terrain/satellite though.

[Khamsin]

Georgia has been blanked out on Google maps @@;

There goes Russia's primary intelligence.

[Bingbong]

It's Americas fault.

No, it's Bush's fault... duh.

Put in these terms.
Lots of Mexicans live in Texas.
So a region in Texas full of Mexicans decide that they will revolt the American government in order to have their region be recognized as part of the country of Mexico.

Of course, Texas doesn't want that to happen, so they go in and say no - with guns.
At what point in my hypothetical situation should the country of Mexico become reasonably involved and able to fight the Texans?

Georgia has a right to sovereignty in that area, aggressors or not. Russia stepping in is purely a power move.

[Atlasion]

UN Soldiers = American soldiers, so hopefully they don't intend to do anything. This has nothing to do with our national security so we shouldn't put any of our soldiers in the line of fire.

UN soldiers does not equal American soldiers. The UN soldiers are peacekeepers. Look at the last 20 years of peacekeeping in other countries. The US contributes less than most others.

This is not the same as invading a country. That's usually done with a UN mandate but is still seen as one country, or a coalition of countries, attacking another. Not the UN attacking.

[guartz]

Georgia has been blanked out on Google maps @@;

o shi

[guartz]

No, it's Bush's fault... duh.

Put in these terms.
Lots of Mexicans live in Texas.
So a region in Texas full of Mexicans decide that they will revolt the American government in order to have their region be recognized as part of the country of Mexico.

Of course, Texas doesn't want that to happen, so they go in and say no - with guns.
At what point in my hypothetical situation should the country of Mexico become reasonably involved and able to fight the Texans?

Georgia has a right to sovereignty in that area, aggressors or not. Russia stepping in is purely a power move.

no, think of it as cuba attacking guantanamo. How will America react?

[pohibaba]

UN soldiers does not equal American soldiers. The UN soldiers are peacekeepers. Look at the last 20 years of peacekeeping in other countries. The US contributes less than most others.

This is not the same as invading a country. That's usually done with a UN mandate but is still seen as one country, or a coalition of countries, attacking another. Not the UN attacking.

Well, America obviously can't control what the UN is going to do in this case, so our only option is to refuse to send any troops there to help either side; this is the action that we'll take, hopefully, but I'm not going to put any money on us actually doing it.

[Atlasion]

Well, America obviously can't control what the UN is going to do in this case, so our only option is to refuse to send any troops there to help either side; this is the action that we'll take, hopefully, but I'm not going to put any money on us actually doing it.

You're giving the UN too much credit. States take action, and only states. Doing it through the UN just makes it look 'legal'. The UN itself doesn't really do anything, it just acts as a forum for states to discuss and shout st each other.

You're right though. The US won't send troops. They'll just push for a peaceful resolution. Directly fighting Russia would damage international relations quite badly and could escalate to something much worse. Also, too tied up in the Middle East to care. They've been saying they're too overstretched to take on Iran, let alone Russia.

[Enkidu]

no, think of it as cuba attacking guantanamo.

How do you come to that conclusion? Guantanamo Bay is legally leased by the US and has been for a long time.

A better example would be to turn the tables in the Mexico/American example. What if the Mexicans living in the Baja peninsula wanted independence from Mexico and Mexico began sending troops in? When would it be acceptable for America to enter the conflict?

The answer is never, because by entering the conflict you only make things worse. It only looks like a strong nation trying to control land that belongs to another country. What Russia should have done is offer asylum to South Ossetians and stayed out of the territory. That or get heavily involved in sending UN troops to the area.

[Bingbong]

The problem with using the UN in this case in going to be the security council. Namely the fact that Russia is on it, and holds veto powers.

So basically, the UN has to force Russia to veto action against itself, which it will do, and look bad doing it. Then all the UN can do is hope outside pressures (via sanctions etc) will be enough to stop Russia from continuing this move.

Any alliance or country that sends troops into this mess is basically begging for WWIII.

[kuronosan]

How do you come to that conclusion? Guantanamo Bay is legally leased by the US and has been for a long time.

A better example would be to turn the tables in the Mexico/American example. What if the Mexicans living in the Baja peninsula wanted independence from Mexico and Mexico began sending troops in? When would it be acceptable for America to enter the conflict?

The answer is never, because by entering the conflict you only make things worse. It only looks like a strong nation trying to control land that belongs to another country. What Russia should have done is offer asylum to South Ossetians and stayed out of the territory. That or get heavily involved in sending UN troops to the area.

Guantanamo's lease was a 100-year lease that was supposed to end a long time ago, but due to Cuba's turn to communism and our embargo we didn't give it back. This was the same style as Hong Kong being England-owned and various other countries that were spoils of war.

Your example is awful. The Baja Peninsula BELONGS to Mexico.

A good example would be something more like Korea. What if there was a section of South Korea chock full of North Koreans in an area, I dunno, we'll call it, Mao-zong. Well, in this fictional area, North Koreans wanna break off and become part of North Korea. If South Korea started attacking these people, the North Koreans technically STILL have a right to protect its citizens even if they're in another country, especially if they are true citizens.

Christ sakes, it's no different than if US citizens overseas were being attacked. Of COURSE we're going to go in there and protect them... and then in a true protecting fashion, you're going to make sure that they stay protected... and if that means pushing into another country's boundaries and pushing out a perimeter so that the army can't just launch attacks without someone knowing, then that's what has to be done.

In my opinion, Russia is only doing what's necessary to protect its citizens... even if they have underhanded means of doing so Georgia stepped way out of line.

[Atlasion]

I thought Northern Ireland would be a good example to compare it to. In "what if" terms.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, some folks in Northern Ireland don't like that. Irish terrorist groups attack the British government, army and civilians so the British Army moves in and fights the terrorists. Now lets say the Republic of Ireland decided Northern Ireland was its own territory and moved troops in to protect the terrorists from the British Army. We wouldn't be very happy.

[Khamsin]

Well, you can't expect to change citizenship just 'cause some Russian tart threw a passport at you. If I went around claiming I was a Russian citizen just because some Rusky bink lobbed a book at me, they'd put me away!

[Bingbong]

In my opinion, Russia is only doing what's necessary to protect its citizens... even if they have underhanded means of doing so Georgia stepped way out of line.

Couldn't disagree more. A sovereign nation has a right to keep it's own borders. You're not talking about (ugh Godwin's law incoming) Hitler here who is flash-frying his own people for racial reasons or something. Short of some unsubstantiated accounts, President Saakashvili has been a reasonable leader. The fact that he's pro-western and trying to join NATO is what's causing this issue. Saakashvili has also signed his half of a cease-fire, to which Russia has declined.

The Georgian army was trying to, again, squash an uprising. If Russia was interested in protecting it's citizens, they would've stopped at the South Ossetia borders and said "now quit it!" but they didn't. Instead they've simply formed a two-front attack and rolled their tanks within a marathon's distance to the Georgian capital.

Well, you can't expect to change citizenship just 'cause some Russian tart threw a passport at you. If I went around claiming I was a Russian citizen just because some Rusky bink lobbed a book at me, they'd put me away!

Well played.

[Enkidu]

Guantanamo's lease was a 100-year lease that was supposed to end a long time ago, but due to Cuba's turn to communism and our embargo we didn't give it back.

Pretty sure that's wrong. Treaties in 1934 affirmed that the US could stay as long as it wished.

Your example is awful. The Baja Peninsula BELONGS to Mexico.

Wait a second, who does South Ossetia belong too? Oh yeah, Georgia.

Christ sakes, it's no different than if US citizens overseas were being attacked. Of COURSE we're going to go in there and protect them... and then in a true protecting fashion, you're going to make sure that they stay protected... and if that means pushing into another country's boundaries and pushing out a perimeter so that the army can't just launch attacks without someone knowing, then that's what has to be done.

That's naive and fucking stupid. All it does is invite war.

In my opinion, Russia is only doing what's necessary to protect its citizens... even if they have underhanded means of doing so Georgia stepped way out of line.

Doing what was necessary would be offering asylum to South Ossetians or actively transporting Russians out of the territory. Not sending tanks into another nation and escalating a war.

[Atlasion]

How far do they have to go to protect their 'citizens'? They've pushed even further into Georgia and have even moved troops to Abkhazia. That seems a bit excessive to just protect some people they gave passports to.

[evilbau]

I think there are a number of points that no one has touched upon that bears mentioning. I think this is the beginning of the new face of post-communist Russia. Newly empowered by their energy profits, they are once again building strength as a world power (has been happening for some time now).

Partially to blame, I believe, is how Bush has mishandled Russia (and particularly Putin) in the past couple years, from the public admonishes of each other, to the pseudo-Cuban Missile Crisis we went through, what, only a couple weeks ago? Relations have broken down a lot in this administration (cue vid of Clinton and Yeltsin).

Aside from Russia's, ahem, less humane rules of engagement (Chechnya), which is certainly a point of concern, there are also economic interests in play here which affect everyone. There is some major oil pipelines that run through Georgia and the disruption of which will only deepen the energy crisis. Just when we thought the price was going to come down a bit! (i believe by a buck or so)

Edit to add: MSNBC on 'why should you care' not bad commentary
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...38729#26138729

[Kuya]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26116598/

This is way more important than shit about China and Edwards.

GORI, Georgia - Russia reportedly captured the central city of Gori and its armored vehicles rolled deep into western Georgia on Monday, seizing a military base and several towns and opening a second front of fighting. Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili said the Russian forces had effectively cut his country in half.
"The Georgian army is retreating to defend the capital," the Georgian government said in a statement, adding that it was "urgently seeking international intervention to prevent the fall of Georgia."
A top official at the Georgian embassy in Moscow said Russian troops appeared to be moving toward Tbilisi and he alleged Russia’s goal was “complete liquidation” of the Georgian government.

Russians are really on the war path here.

Georgia borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia and was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union. Both South Ossetia and Abkhazia have run their own affairs without international recognition since fighting to split from Georgia in the early 1990s.
Both separatist provinces have close ties with Moscow, while Georgia has deeply angered Russia by wanting to join NATO.

Russia's Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin said more than 2,000 people had been killed in South Ossetia since Friday, most of them Ossetians with Russian passports. The figures could not be independently confirmed, but refugees who fled the city said hundreds were killed.
Thousands of civilians have fled South Ossetia — many seeking shelter in the neighboring Russian province of North Ossetia.
"The Georgians burned all of our homes," said one elderly woman, as she sat on a bench under a tree with three other white-haired survivors of the fighting. "The Georgians say it is their land. Where is our land, then?"

[Kuya]

What was it again that the US was trying to set up near Russia, and the Russians very seriously opposed it? Looking back, this stuff has been building up for quite some time.

[Mugekuge]

Guantanamo's lease was a 100-year lease that was supposed to end a long time ago, but due to Cuba's turn to communism and our embargo we didn't give it back. This was the same style as Hong Kong being England-owned and various other countries that were spoils of war.

Your example is awful. The Baja Peninsula BELONGS to Mexico.

A good example would be something more like Korea. What if there was a section of South Korea chock full of North Koreans in an area, I dunno, we'll call it, Mao-zong. Well, in this fictional area, North Koreans wanna break off and become part of North Korea. If South Korea started attacking these people, the North Koreans technically STILL have a right to protect its citizens even if they're in another country, especially if they are true citizens.

Christ sakes, it's no different than if US citizens overseas were being attacked. Of COURSE we're going to go in there and protect them... and then in a true protecting fashion, you're going to make sure that they stay protected... and if that means pushing into another country's boundaries and pushing out a perimeter so that the army can't just launch attacks without someone knowing, then that's what has to be done.

In my opinion, Russia is only doing what's necessary to protect its citizens... even if they have underhanded means of doing so Georgia stepped way out of line.

I agree with your post although there is not a 100 year limit on guantanamo bay, according to the Cuba constitution of 1903, they let USA have control of the bay all the time they want:

1903
The United States and Cuba sign three treaties. The Permanent Treaty enacts the Platt Amendment into a formal treaty relationship. A second accord, the Reciprocity Treaty, concedes a 20 percent concession to Cuban agricultural products entering the U.S. market in exchange for reductions between 20 to 40 percent on U.S. imports. In the third agreement, Cuba leases the sites of Bahia Honda and Guantanamo to the United States. A naval base is constructed in Guantanamo.

There was an election in 2006 in Osetia and over 90% of people wished to be part of Russian Federation, Georgia attacked and killed like 10 russian soldiers besides some civilians last week, was obvious Russia was going to attack back. Fun to see USA government asking to Russia to stop, when they have been attacking Irak non stop the last few years (besides Georgia has the third biggest army in Irak).