FFXI DKP

[Indalecia]

We dont bot... we playing on XBox and PS2!

That a fact...

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o.../ambition2.jpg

[Thorshammer]

good work sherlock... have a cookie

[Tamashii]

well i'm off that list. gf won't let me bot anymore.

dkp does remove potential leader favoritism.

course, it doesn't kick the incompetent ppl, unless you set some nice hefty penalties.

[Naramaska]

We use DKP as a sort of attendance system--SH choose drops, but we use DKP, player skill, and specific event attendance usually in determining drops. No, there is no formula, just us trying to make good decisions.


So far it's worked for almost 3 years for us. We'll make the occasional bad choice on who should get what, but people are (thankfully) mature enough to realize that it's not going to be the last time we get [insert item here].

[Militant]

img

Spaghetti Marinara etc...

[Amele]

well i'm off that list. gf won't let me bot anymore.

dkp does remove potential leader favoritism.

course, it doesn't kick the incompetent ppl, unless you set some nice hefty penalties.

you're right. dkp just heavily favors the leaders and those with near-perfect attendance disproportionately. (and sets a huge barrier for any new members which is why more and more shells will just break when membership gets low - it's easier to start over - unless they've managed to achieve ubiquitous status where they have willing dupes app'ing every day because they feel that the only way to get 'item x' is by indenturing themselves for 8 months to 'the best shell')

and kicking incompetent people should be handled by a pitbull linksack and not by your loot system. the loot system is there in an attempt to retain competent players; and any shell that's concerned about its long-term health should be including new competent players in that group as well.

[Tamashii]

well i'd like to say ambition's dkp system is pretty good on the items. guy who came to ls for not more than 2 months got novio earring. that definitely says something.

leader favoritism or not, all you have to do is look at the ls members. if the leaders are pimp geared and the members have basic stuff, you know something's going on. but in ambition, everyone's fairly well geared and stuff's evenly distributed.

all in all i'm pretty satisfied with the distribution system atm. the germans and the arabs are doing a fine job here.

one caveat i've found: NEVER EVER EVER accept maats cap members to an HNM shell. 90% of the time they're lootwhores with egos. avoid at all cost.



and besides, the people with near perfect attendence deserve the equipment. they're the reliable ones. (assuming they're not some incompetent leeching significant other of a sack) doesn't that make sense?

i think the best part about ambition is the money from ls bank is distributed every month if you're above a certain dkp (in otherwords if you're not a loot whore), and depending on how much events you attend. sorta like a salary! its not uncommon to have million gil payoffs monthly for most members.

[Thorshammer]

what tama said
<3

[Amele]

here's an example.

two members have been with the shell an equal amount of time - one makes 100% of the events and the other makes 85%. we'll say they've been with the shell for a year and have 1000 points and 850 points respectively.

guy A could have 140 points worth of equipment, guy B could have 0 points worth of equipment, and guy A would still be ahead for loot they both want. It also screws 'latecomers' - guy C has been with the shell since it started but has 40% attendance and most of it was in the first six months. (we'll say he has 1000 points too) guy D has been with the shell for the most recent 6 months with perfect attendance (500 points). guy C could literally have 490 points of loot and still be ahead of Guy D, even though guy D has been basically a slave to the shell for half a year.

this is why I said 'disproportionately' favors.

the guys with the most career attendance deserves the most loot yes, but the guys with the most career attendance do not deserve to get everything they want to the point where other people with good standing are getting the scraps months if not years after joining, which is what straight (EQDKP) does in its classic configuration.

I recognize that you can band-aid the system enough times in enough ways to prevent this (loot limits besides basic point priority, providing riders for guys who go a long time without getting things, etc.) but by the time you're done the system is almost invariably: overly complex, too easy to game, and harder to run than if you had just used a fairer system from the ground up.

I'm not saying that ambitionls is specifically the problem here (they just happened to be the first ones to post who are functionally using eqdkp) I'm saying that the system they happen to have picked is a bad system.

[Titanss]

well i'm off that list. gf won't let me bot anymore.

lol whaaaaat?! I dunno I laughed my ass off on this.

[Tamashii]

lol whaaaaat?! I dunno I laughed my ass off on this.

i see your point amele, but person who lots will lose their points, giving guy b a chance the next time. ultimately no system's perfect, but so far no one's really getting shit-sticked in ambition yet.

Also, the person with higher DKP doesn't always have to get first pick. Person B can force Person A to use more points for an item by competitive bids.



the horror stories in leader-choose system i think is far more.

consider also, we're chatting about this in BG. none of us here are exactly softcore players. we're addicted to the game, and come here for our daily ff/drama fix or strats. its the softcore players opinions who would be really appreciated here, and unfortunately most of them don't read BG to care to give an opinion. hence, i think the inflated opinion of the leader decide system. (its like royalty reading machiavelli's 'The Prince' and talking about it on the forums. yeah, most ppl here would favor the leader decide system.)


and in regards the the gf not letting me bot. yeah, of course. it's either that, or she cuts off the sex.

frankly, i choose hot sex (rape?) over botting any day of the week.

[Mayu]

here's an example.

two members have been with the shell an equal amount of time - one makes 100% of the events and the other makes 85%. we'll say they've been with the shell for a year and have 1000 points and 850 points respectively.

guy A could have 140 points worth of equipment, guy B could have 0 points worth of equipment, and guy A would still be ahead for loot they both want. It also screws 'latecomers' - guy C has been with the shell since it started but has 40% attendance and most of it was in the first six months. (we'll say he has 1000 points too) guy D has been with the shell for the most recent 6 months with perfect attendance (500 points). guy C could literally have 490 points of loot and still be ahead of Guy D, even though guy D has been basically a slave to the shell for half a year.

this is why I said 'disproportionately' favors.

the guys with the most career attendance deserves the most loot yes, but the guys with the most career attendance do not deserve to get everything they want to the point where other people with good standing are getting the scraps months if not years after joining, which is what straight (EQDKP) does in its classic configuration.

I recognize that you can band-aid the system enough times in enough ways to prevent this (loot limits besides basic point priority, providing riders for guys who go a long time without getting things, etc.) but by the time you're done the system is almost invariably: overly complex, too easy to game, and harder to run than if you had just used a fairer system from the ground up.

I'm not saying that ambitionls is specifically the problem here (they just happened to be the first ones to post who are functionally using eqdkp) I'm saying that the system they happen to have picked is a bad system.

Your examples are way too general imo. I admit that the DKP system doesn't work if it isn't adjusted constantly and you do need a lot of extra rules to keep it balanced but it is a very fair system as long as you do it that way.

We don't let the one with the highest points lot alone. When you have the points you can lot on the item. Items need to have a reasonable value though.
It's hard to set it up fairly but it works a lot better and fairer than wish lists/prio systems and well....leader decide(lol).

I do believe that those who contribute the most to a LS and attend the most events should get the most stuff. It's like in any job...work a lot - get more money (theoretically spoken)

If u got a fairer system. Go ahead and gimme a link or example.

[Indalecia]

Well I got to give you props. Ya keep throwing junk gear at Roll so it doesn't ask for any of the good stuff. lol

[Tamashii]

Well I got to give you props. Ya keep throwing junk gear at Roll so it doesn't ask for any of the good stuff. lol

we changed the dkp system now so that rollchan can't just use money to buy items anymore. she's privately expressed her disappointment (lol) and subsequently havent attended much events since. i'm glad.

[Indalecia]

*marching band*

[Amele]

Your examples are way too general imo. I admit that the DKP system doesn't work if it isn't adjusted constantly and you do need a lot of extra rules to keep it balanced but it is a very fair system as long as you do it that way.

We don't let the one with the highest points lot alone. When you have the points you can lot on the item. Items need to have a reasonable value though.
It's hard to set it up fairly but it works a lot better and fairer than wish lists/prio systems and well....leader decide(lol).

I do believe that those who contribute the most to a LS and attend the most events should get the most stuff. It's like in any job...work a lot - get more money (theoretically spoken)

If u got a fairer system. Go ahead and gimme a link or example.

simple example: divide Career Points earned by Career Loot taken instead of subtracting (there's a whole system based on this, called relational dkp, but the general example demonstrates it most clearly in message board format).

implications:
a player with twice the attendance is allocated (approximately) twice the loot, instead of potentially all of the loot between any two given people.

fair to new players: a player only need to be in the shell a couple weeks before they are at similar priority for their first piece.

fair to old players: high attendance will earn you extra loot versus lower attendance players with a similar start date proportional to the difference in attendance rate (a player with 25% better attendance has about 25% more loot over time.) helps ensure that players with less than perfect attendance aren't starved for high-value gear. vs. similar attendance rate players who started later than you, you will have approximately the same proportion of loot as the ratio of the amount of time you've been with the shell (e.x. two players with perfect attendance who started 1 year ago and 9 months ago: the older player will have approximately 25% more loot.)

good for leaders: easy as hell to run. system is self-stabilizing vs. inflation and doesn't require complex math like say, a zero-sum system would. same basic flexibility in selecting ways to earn and spend points as EQDKP, including providing cash for points or extra-credit for effort/donations or levying penalties (in fact, you've got two ways to do it in this system vs 1 in EQDKP so it's that much more flexible here) and encourages older members to continue to attend since it is nearly impossible to get too far ahead and guarantee your lotting rights regardless of ongoing attendance.


downsides: harder to implement a bidding system (bids still work, just not as obvious what the 'bid cap' should be); members with perfect attendance may feel 'cheated' compared to the lion's share of loot they are used to receiving in other systems; very long running shells may feel like priority has stagnated (this problem happens in EQDKP too but not in other systems like say, bid-all dkp.)

If you're really serious about wanting to explore new systems send me a PM. there's a good dozen systems that all 'work' depending on what your exact goals are (RDKP is just one of the most similar to EQDKP) and I'd be happy to walk through an overview of the options with you.

[Liseth]

NEVER EVER EVER accept maats cap members to an HNM shell. 90% of the time they're lootwhores with egos. avoid at all cost.

lol...it's funny because it's true : P

[Tubbers]

@Amele

I'm not sure I understood the example you laid out. I myself am in a /point distribution system, so I haven't delved much into the DKP alternatives, but in the system you just outlined, let's say 1 day = 1 point, and I don't know, Ace's Helm is 25 points.

Two people A and B, A has 100 points and B has 24, they are the only two who want Ace's Helm.
Day 1: Ace's Helm drops, it goes (obviously) to A, and his point total is divided by 25, therefore he has 4 points left. A and B get a new point at the end of the day
Day 2: Ace's Helm drops, it goes to B, and his point total is divided by 25, therefore he has 1 point left, and A has 5 points.

A just spent 75 points as opposed to B's 24 for the same item. That's 75 days vs 24 days. I realize that relative / over time the amounts you put forth are true, someone with 25% higher attendence will get 25% more items, but basically what I'm saying is in this system someone is going to get fucked over hard.

@Tamashii / Liseth
The three Maat's cap people in my LS are some of the nicest, least greedy, most helpful people I've ever had the pleasure of playing with. Lootwhoring/Ego is a personal trait, not something that comes with owning a Maat's cap.

[Tamashii]

@Amele


@Tamashii / Liseth
The three Maat's cap people in my LS are some of the nicest, least greedy, most helpful people I've ever had the pleasure of playing with. Lootwhoring/Ego is a personal trait, not something that comes with owning a Maat's cap.

yeah. i know a few indians who aren't cheap too. :3

not starting drama. let's end this here.

[Amele]

yeah you missed that it's career points.

in normal eqdkp you subtract career points from career loot. (it just happens one item at a time, but thanks to mathematical properties of addition and subtraction you can rearrange the orders and obtain the same result adding everything up first, then subtracting everything after)

in rdkp you divide -career- points from -career- loot. so player A has 101 points and a 25 point item and has a priority of 4.04 - player B has 25 points and 25 loot so a priority of 1.00. lets say on day 3 a pair of hachiryu pants drops, worth.. say, 50 points. Player A still gets it and now has a priority of 102/75 = 1.36. player B now has 27/25 = 1.08. A is still ahead because his ratio of points earned to loot gained is still higher than player B.

make more sense now?