Pandemonium, Morgan Webb Causes Vomiting. Media Blitz Ensues

[Kang]

I could make another spam thread and have a mod move it here.
Worked pretty well the first time.

This time make a thread asking the BG community if its okay buying gil

[Kabbalah]

In reading this, I can say again that it isn't that simple. If anyone is responsible, it's not the dev team. Your mentioning Hideo Kojima's situation actually puts the spotlight on how Square-Enix isn't like Konami, and isn't as generous when it comes to providing developers with the assets they need. This might sound strange, but anyone who's actually worked with (or who is otherwise intricately familiar with) Square-Enix's quality assurance department in El Segundo, California could tell you the same. And that's not even getting into the clusterfuck that is Japanese and English testing team communications, which is pretty much a lack of communication rather than anything useful.

Square-Enix probably has a rotating set of quality assurance testers who, as you mentioned, do not play FFXI outside of work. The vast majority of game developers specifically do not hire people who play games for fun. This might sound weird, but that's because game testing normally does not involve playing a title normally. You're not supposed to fight enemies, level up, and have fun. You're there to test the functionality of the game, so they don't want you to fall into "gaming habits," they want you to know how to follow a spreadsheet and break things.

Now, if you want to do the aforementioned play testing that Kojima did, you hire a whole bunch of people from the outside who do play games, have them sign their exclusivity agreements and all that, and have at it. This is absolutely invaluable, yet the vast majority of companies do not do it, and Square-Enix is one of the most notorious.

That's not the dev team's fault. If SE won't give them that resource, won't let them release beta software, and so on, there's nothing they can do except see what happens when the user base gets their hands on it.

So, I still respect the dev team for creating such a huge product, and I enjoy FFXI. I just don't respect their production department and higher-ups in general for being a bunch of useless strict shitbags who don't give them the resources any respectable dev should get.

Whenever someone starts anything with "it's not that simple," it means they're not going to like the truth. The truth? SE's dev team is simply lazy when it comes to playtesting. If SE doesn't give them the resource, then maybe the dev team should make it clear that SE's reputation rests on every single game they make, especially this one. Even Failship Studios had people beta test that box of marketing fail called Hellgate: London (which actually was fun, btw), so don't give me crap about SE's management team refusing to give FFXI's development team decent beta testers that actually care about the game. That's like saying GM can't afford to put their cars through crash testing. SE could put out a call on every FFXI board to playtest shit on a completely unstable server that would arbitrarily erase their characters at random intervals and you'd never see an end to the line of volunteers because they, the players, want to make sure that the game turns out right when it hits the shelves.

Kojima? He gets beta testers who actually do care if the game is fun because he cares if the game is fun. (He can't write for shit, but that's a different story.) I've beta tested games before; the first question is always "are you having fun?" because if you can't make an emotional investment into an MMO, then what's the use? The more technical stuff follows: Is the leveling path easy? Is this section too difficult for the level you're at? What kind of skills are being used? What skills are being ignored? Are you falling through the floor anywhere? What should be tweaked and what shouldn't? Is this part too confusing? No, the shit's not simple, but it's doable: I don't feel pity for the development team about this because it's their fucking job: I've known many a DM/GM who've created entire worlds from the ground up, and they don't even get paid for it. Do I respect them for doing their job? I respect them like I respect any craftsman: when they show dedication and diligence to the job and do a good job, then yes. If they slack off, screw around, and blame their mistakes on the gamers (and you never blame your audience for anything), then no.

Does SE deserve to get shit for it? Hell, yes: beta testing, quality assurance, and quick response time to customer complaints is ubiquitous with MMOs. Does FFXI's development team deserve to get shit for it as well? Hell, yes, because if in your words, "any respectable dev should get" a reliable QA/beta testing team as a resource, and SE's management won't give it, then maybe the dev team should grow a pair and demand a fucking beta testing team that actually gives a shit.

[Kohan]

Whenever someone starts anything with "it's not that simple," it means they're not going to like the truth. The truth? SE's dev team is simply lazy when it comes to playtesting. If SE doesn't give them the resource, then maybe the dev team should make it clear that SE's reputation rests on every single game they make, especially this one. Even Failship Studios had people beta test [snip]

Although you've mentioned that you've beta tested, that doesn't equal working in the industry. It's nothing like it. If you believe dev studios get this much respect from their superiors, then you mustn't have ever worked for one. This surely sounds like my saying a lot of "you had to be there," but unfortunately, that's the way it is. As mentioned earlier, developers are a vital yet often disrespected part of the industry. Very, very few of them are known, and many companies hire programmers, artists, and so on to complete just one project, and then pink slip them all.

Your mentioning that this is like saying GM won't crash test their vehicles doesn't really apply. What you're arguing is that the clerk at Taco Bell can tell the CEO of the company that they want the freedom to design cooler looking uniforms, new recipes, and unique advertising slogans while being paid for all of their research, failed attempts, and final products. The CEO would laugh, call up the manager later, and have them fired. They wouldn't even be able to sue because they couldn't afford it, and no one would care.

Developers are not that important. They should be, by all means, but they are not, not in the eyes of their superiors. Considering, you have to expect them to start to turn bitter after a while, especially if they aren't provided with the resources they require. That brings us back to play testing. Though beta testers may provide their "services" for free, think of how many people use a beta as an early glimpse of a game and never contribute anything useful at all. A lot of people sign up for betas thinking, "sweet, I've been wanting to play this game!" They never submit a single bug, and the companies don't have the time and money to waste to make them do so. In fact, they can't legally require it since they're not paying these people. Maybe you did submit reports, and if you did, that's excellent and I'm glad you cared to help that much. I can say, though, that the majority of people do not care enough.

Meanwhile, the company must pay for the development of the beta builds (which are separate from the internal live and/or quality assurance builds), the separate servers for them, the accumulation of those few bugs which the player base actually submits, the additional people to verify and test these bugs, and then the programmers who work on repairing these in two, three, or even four separate code sets. It's very complicated, time-consuming, and expensive. The free work of beta testers only helps so much, especially since even in-house testers are paid considerably less than the developers themselves.

In-house play testing, on the other hand, is much more effective. Focused beta testing can work, but it requires an incredible amount of effort on the company's part, and a very strong tester community.

Does SE deserve to get shit for it? Hell, yes: beta testing, quality assurance, and quick response time to customer complaints is ubiquitous with MMOs.

I agree entirely.

Does FFXI's development team deserve to get shit for it as well? Hell, yes, because if in your words, "any respectable dev should get" a reliable QA/beta testing team as a resource, and SE's management won't give it, then maybe the dev team should grow a pair and demand a fucking beta testing team that actually gives a shit.

If only it were that easy, I am sure they would have.

[Kabbalah]

Somehow, I find that hard to believe. For example, you're comparing the development team to the lowest-ranked members of a corporation, which I find to be a superhuman leap of logic because I keep remembering that Kojima is also the head of a development team in a video game company. After all, a development team is set in charge of a single game, and in this case, an ongoing project; there is a certain level of responsibility and competence required in supervising such projects that does not suggest easy replacement.

And even if SE has ranked the FFXI development team so far down the ranks, something that I do not find at the least believable, given that FFXI is not only an ongoing and constantly evolving project (what's it been, six years now?) but one that is actively competing against at least six to seven other comparable (and in some cases, superior) products, the simple fact that the development team has allowed bullshit like AV to go as long as it has or could not possibly foresee an 18-hour fight against PW shows just how irresponsible and thoughtless they really are.

As I mentioned before, I find it suspicious and somewhat ominous that the development team cannot simply say "fine, here's how AV and PW are done" in simple and concise terms instead of completely rewriting the damned mobs. Even now, they too damned proud to give up their 'ingenious' solution because the player base is sick and tired of trying to figure out what it is.

(Speaking of pride, and somewhat off-topic, I have to wonder how much of a laughing stock FFXI is right now to the development teams of WOW, AOC, EQ, EQII, and every bleeding MMO in Korea, who must be now using AV and PW as instruction manuals on what not to do when designing HNMs and raids. As bad as the PR hit may be for FFXI's development team, I have a feeling that their professional pride must be hurting more.)

Thus, my point still stands: FFXI development team fails.

[Kohan]

Somehow, I find that hard to believe. For example, you're comparing the development team to the lowest-ranked members of a corporation, which I find to be a superhuman leap of logic because I keep remembering that Kojima is also the head of a development team in a video game company. After all, a development team is set in charge of a single game, and in this case, an ongoing project; there is a certain level of responsibility and competence required in supervising such projects that does not suggest easy replacement.

That's why I said that very few developers gain respect. Most of them are unknown and not cared much about. They shouldn't be treated like they're the security guard at the front desk, but they very often are. Companies are always looking for programmers for their games, but this isn't because they build very large groups. Most are done with twenty or less. When they're done, they're sometimes moved to another project, or usually fired.

It isn't something that's "hard to believe," it's the reality of the industry. Kojima, Naka, Miyamoto, they're all exceptions (although even Naka left SEGA once over his extreme displeasure with how they were treating him, well before he went off and started Prope). And even the mighty have fallen before, like Yokoi after the Virtual Boy. Companies don't want to keep programmers on their payroll when they aren't actively working on something, and few of them are worshiped for long, if ever.

As for the teams who do actually stick around, such as the FFXI dev team, their superiors want to minimize their paychecks by keeping them away from overtime. Having frequent or (unbelievable as it would be) constant play testing results to deal with would make their costs skyrocket. They would have to add onto the team, start coding, compiling, and distributing more builds (with different branches of code), have representatives who dealt with the community, and so on, so forth.

And even if SE has ranked the FFXI development team so far down the ranks, something that I do not find at the least believable, given that FFXI is not only an ongoing and constantly evolving project (what's it been, six years now?) but one that is actively competing against at least six to seven other comparable (and in some cases, superior) products

It doesn't matter. I'm already aware that you refuse to believe this, but that's why I say it takes working in the industry to know. Most people in quality assurance, beta testing, and so on don't really understand what the higher levels of development are like. You're only as good as your last day, your past hardly matters, and developers are expendable. Not all at once, but any dev worth their weight in salt has programs which let them build maps, place collision polygons, insert mobs and attach their functions -- in other words, the digital equivalent of a by-the-numbers coloring book that newbies can latch onto. Once they're taught the tricks of the actual code, the replacement has been trained and the senior is of little to no use. Gradually, the old members go away and the new do their work more cheaply.

In fact, as unfair as that might sound, it's actually more useful in some cases than having the same developers behind a project forever. A fresh brain might come up with new fixes that were never thought of before... or they might break a build and be thrown out on their ass. It can go either way.

Developers who aren't treated properly yet are kept around usually grow bitter and continue working for the sake of a paycheck. You can't expect such a team to really care too much about the perfectness of their final product. After all, it's like what's already been said in this thread before... is this going to make most of the player base quit? No. They'll just wait for the fix, if they're even capable of fighting Pandemonium Warden and really give a damn.

the simple fact that the development team has allowed bullshit like AV to go as long as it has or could not possibly foresee an 18-hour fight against PW shows just how irresponsible and thoughtless they really are.

I don't disagree that Pandemonium Warden is an astonishing fuck-up, but I have also seen developers do shit that deliberately shames their company. It's one way of getting revenge, after all. It's just like people using backward played lyrics in songs from the 1960's and 1970's to overcome censorship, or people anonymously leaking information about corporations they've signed a non-disclosure agreement with. Do you still want to keep your job at the end of the day? Yes, but you're pissed off enough to risk losing it.

Of course, that's a kind of crazy and romantic way of painting it, and I can't say they really wanted to give SE a black eye. But I don't know, maybe they did. Getting back to the more feasible example of how useful fresh brains can be, you would be amazed at how many utterly cockamamie things seem perfectly logical to you when you've been working on the same game for years. This is because you're so hard-wired into the project that you can't think outside of the box. I have been there, and I understand.

As I mentioned before, I find it suspicious and somewhat ominous that the development team cannot simply say "fine, here's how AV and PW are done" in simple and concise terms instead of completely rewriting the damned mobs. Even now, they too damned proud to give up their 'ingenious' solution because the player base is sick and tired of trying to figure out what it is.

Thus, my point still stands: FFXI development team fails.

I disagree, and blame Square-Enix as a whole rather than just FFXI's development team. I suppose we'll have to agree to go our separate ways.

[Kang]

Lol the other thread got locked. Wasn't going to read all that useless AV arguing anyways.

[Muramasa]

Whenever someone starts anything with "it's not that simple," it means they're not going to like the truth. The truth? SE's dev team is simply lazy when it comes to playtesting. If SE doesn't give them the resource, then maybe the dev team should make it clear that SE's reputation rests on every single game they make, especially this one. Even Failship Studios had people beta test that box of marketing fail called Hellgate: London (which actually was fun, btw), so don't give me crap about SE's management team refusing to give FFXI's development team decent beta testers that actually care about the game. That's like saying GM can't afford to put their cars through crash testing. SE could put out a call on every FFXI board to playtest shit on a completely unstable server that would arbitrarily erase their characters at random intervals and you'd never see an end to the line of volunteers because they, the players, want to make sure that the game turns out right when it hits the shelves.

Kojima? He gets beta testers who actually do care if the game is fun because he cares if the game is fun. (He can't write for shit, but that's a different story.) I've beta tested games before; the first question is always "are you having fun?" because if you can't make an emotional investment into an MMO, then what's the use? The more technical stuff follows: Is the leveling path easy? Is this section too difficult for the level you're at? What kind of skills are being used? What skills are being ignored? Are you falling through the floor anywhere? What should be tweaked and what shouldn't? Is this part too confusing? No, the shit's not simple, but it's doable: I don't feel pity for the development team about this because it's their fucking job: I've known many a DM/GM who've created entire worlds from the ground up, and they don't even get paid for it. Do I respect them for doing their job? I respect them like I respect any craftsman: when they show dedication and diligence to the job and do a good job, then yes. If they slack off, screw around, and blame their mistakes on the gamers (and you never blame your audience for anything), then no.

Does SE deserve to get shit for it? Hell, yes: beta testing, quality assurance, and quick response time to customer complaints is ubiquitous with MMOs. Does FFXI's development team deserve to get shit for it as well? Hell, yes, because if in your words, "any respectable dev should get" a reliable QA/beta testing team as a resource, and SE's management won't give it, then maybe the dev team should grow a pair and demand a fucking beta testing team that actually gives a shit.

I stopped reading after that, sorry guy.

[Max™]

Ya know, I think that video might be shooped... I can tell from some of the pixels.

[Lordwafik]

Lol Izzy.

I'm good Mura. Gonna be doing some salvage myself tonight. Olympics are done so gonna do some more stuff in game.

Well kinda a derail with this back and forth converse between myself and Mura but you gotta admit, this is kind of a dead issure anyways

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7045/pmnaoyw4.jpg

[Izzy]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Totally outshines me ten-fold.

[Lordwafik]

I think I came a little =o

I think I'm deleting your posts a little.

[fusionx]

http://www.petfoodalpha.com is alive again after getting bombarded with hits! XD

[Kang]

http://www.petfoodalpha.com is alive again after getting bombarded with hits! XD

Has anyone who "borrowed" PFA's article done a retract and properly gave them credit yet?

[Muramasa]

Ok, how's "I think I pissed my pants a little bit"? =x

[Kabbalah]

I stopped reading after that, sorry guy.

Except that he is. Oh, Hideo can create an awesome game, weave a incredibly complex plot, craft an addictive combat system, and I will easily have fun all the way, but he just can't write a script that sounds natural. If he was aiming for melodrama, then he can write that, but melodrama and action simply don't mix.

[Kiehl]

NVM

[Kimiko]

What this thread needs is a nice dose of reraise... or two... or four... or twenty.

http://i38.tinypic.com/3479mrt.jpg

20 reraises by the time it was all said and done.

[Muramasa]

Except that he is. Oh, Hideo can create an awesome game, weave a incredibly complex plot, craft an addictive combat system, and I will easily have fun all the way, but he just can't write a script that sounds natural. If he was aiming for melodrama, then he can write that, but melodrama and action simply don't mix.

A vast majority of his games are more or less natural with the exception of slight other worldly elements- I guess you just have to think outside the box.

[Ophannus]

Blizzard couldn't balance a cube,just look at WoW jobs.

[Charismatic]

What this thread needs is a nice dose of reraise... or two... or four... or twenty.

http://i38.tinypic.com/3479mrt.jpg

20 reraises by the time it was all said and done.

Nevermind the fact that those NMs probably weren't intended to be fought with so few people and take far less time when using more.