USA vs Russia - START

[aurik]

You're a fucking idiot, as usual.

[Churchill]

Yeah this isn't my job or anything, I'll take your word on Russia's true intentions.

[aurik]

Because my previous post was all about Russia's true intentions.

[Kuya]

Russia's true intentions is Vodka. As usual.

[Churchill]

Your previous post was about aid.

In the US's mind, aid means a lot of things.

We send supplies, money, contractor teams, etc. A myriad of devices to rebuild and sustain a people.

We increase our rhetoric against the cause of their plight or rhetoric for our benevolence and strengthen host nation ties.

We become allies (In this case, pushing Georgia into NATO) and build forward airbases.

We assert force in the region because every country there knows we now have a bargaining chip.

--

None of this is anywhere near what Russia wants, and in fact they've actually asserted some force of their own in displaying their efficiency at moving troops into a region and securing it. They've said "Hey, we're on our way back" and now they're being demonized to undermine their progress in discrediting Georgia.

The biggest key for Russia not wanting Georgia to be in NATO I think, is the Caspian Sea and what that area means to Russia. The US's way of doing business is not going to do great things for our ties with Russia, as shaky as they are. If we continue to handle this wrong there will be some blowback.

[Ace-o-fire]

i dont get why we dont start sucking russia's dick so when ww3 roles around we can then fuck china in the ass?

it's only a matter of time before they get pushy.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

I think Russia has a sphere of influence fetish and they don't want anyone messing with it.

[Kuya]

Cuba.

[Rigor]

Good, then we can stop with this retarded bullshit already.

Georgia was dumb, Russia swatted them, now Russia is going to take both Provinces and secure more of their territory in the Caspian. What right do we have to do anything lol.

But, we should also send tons of aid, because the US isn't going into a depression and there aren't tons of people in the states who could use that aid. The way the western media has glorified Georgia - who (Along with their claims back to Russia, although Russia's came first) has been accused by Russia of committing genocide in the region anyway - is pretty silly.

I think there's more to see but I don't see this as a recreation of the USSR and I see it more as a challenge of Georgia's NATO legitimacy, securing the Caspian for their oil supply, challenging Kosovo with South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and challenging the US to determine our true intentions and thought processes.

Damn Georgians need to worry more about Atlanta and less about Ossetia amirite?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/wo...=1&oref=slogin

Meanwhile, investigators began to look into allegations of atrocities committed in the separatist enclave of South Ossetia, where the war erupted on Aug. 8. Human Rights Watch reported that researchers witnessed “terrifying scenes of destruction” in four deserted ethnic Georgian villages, and said they the villages had been looted and burned by South Ossetian militias.

Anna Neistat, one of the researchers, said by telephone from Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, that they had found no evidence so far to substantiate Russian claims of widespread brutality by Georgian troops.

Human Rights Watch has been able to confirm fewer than 100 deaths — a far cry from the death toll of 2,000 regularly cited by Moscow

Russia ALWAYS tell the truth, and would never try to trick the world so they could take back territories that were previously theirs. This also has everything to do with the supposed "genocide" and not with the gas pipeline that goes through Georgia, to the EU.

[Enkidu]

More on that: http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008...eorgi19607.htm

Georgians are fucking evil, good thing Russia sent their soldiers in to stop them!

[Rigor]

i dont get why we dont start sucking russia's dick so when ww3 roles around we can then fuck china in the ass?

it's only a matter of time before they get pushy.

... What?

[Ace-o-fire]

... What?

Just get on their good side. They claimed all that land around the north pole that has gas and oil reserves. They still are a military power, and run shit around that area.

US needs to stop being the "Oh it's okay X little country I'll go fight the big guy for you" we need to follow what would be in the best interest, and right now Georgia has what for us? nothing, what do we stand to gain from Georgia? very little if anything.

and since China has been booming lately and are always fighting over Taiwan (we said we'll protect them or some bullshit) it would be in our best interest to befriend Russia so in case war ever does break out with China, or any other nations in that area the Russians will have out back.

[HAcoreRD]

Fuck guys. we know what's coming. If we elect President Doogan I'm moving

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o.../RedAlert2.jpg

[Rigor]

Just get on their good side. They claimed all that land around the north pole that has gas and oil reserves. They still are a military power, and run shit around that area.

US needs to stop being the "Oh it's okay X little country I'll go fight the big guy for you" we need to follow what would be in the best interest, and right now Georgia has what for us? nothing, what do we stand to gain from Georgia? very little if anything.

and since China has been booming lately and are always fighting over Taiwan (we said we'll protect them or some bullshit) it would be in our best interest to befriend Russia so in case war ever does break out with China, or any other nations in that area the Russians will have out back.

Why is everyone afraid of China? Yes, they are the rising super power, but i think you guys forget how they got there. America is basically their economy. China is our walmart, America and China will not be going to war anytime soon. Sure we criticize them on their horrible human rights history, but that doesn't mean shit. Its called dialogue, and thats a good thing.

What do we stand to lose if we let Russia go about fucking with all the smaller countries around it that used to be theirs?? A fuck ton, how about how Russia would see America if we let them do this, how about what those little countries think about America if we let Russia pull this shit. This is not a U.S.A. vs Russia thing with Georgia being the war zone, this is a Europe & U.S.A. (edit: NATO) vs. Russia thing.

Do you even realize how ridiculous it is to even think about Russia having our back, and versus China of all people? Are you forgetting all those Patriot missle launchers we gave to Eastern Europe that are overlooking Russia?

[Ace-o-fire]

Why is everyone afraid of China? Yes, they are the rising super power, but i think you guys forget how they got there. America is basically their economy. China is our walmart, America and China will not be going to war anytime soon. Sure we criticize them on their horrible human rights history, but that doesn't mean shit. Its called dialogue, and thats a good thing.

What do we stand to lose if we let Russia go about fucking with all the smaller countries around it that used to be theirs?? A fuck ton, how about how Russia would see America if we let them do this, how about what those little countries think about America if we let Russia pull this shit. This is not a U.S.A. vs Russia thing with Georgia being the war zone, this is a Europe & U.S.A. vs. Russia thing.

Do you even realize how ridiculous it is to even think about Russia having our back, and versus China of all people? Are you forgetting all those Patriot missile launchers we gave to Eastern Europe that are overlooking Russia?

But what are we getting from the little countries in return for us being their watch dog? Now maybe out of all the countries that would really have a problem with that, that help the us in any major way would be Germany, Scandinavia, Turkey. Some countries i agree they don't supply us with much if anything, but we should still defend them IE: Ukraine and the Stan areas. The area Russia is trying to take over was for a long time considered part of russia many of the people had Russian I.D.'s and could travel in to Russia easily. Standing up to that and saying the opposite is very dumb and i don't think if that area was taken over by Russia it wouldn't be looked down by many European countries.

Russia has this overbearing fear of America trying to bring war on them (as they should) since post 9-11 they have been well "World Police" so if we seem friendly to them it will calm their tempers. We would also have to take down that US and Czech Republic signed a Missile Defense Deal since it's pretty much the Cuban missile crisis Vs. 2. And since russia said they will go to war over it. Basically everything we are doing now is pissing of the Russians so it's time for a turn around since a war with Russia we would probably use the Europe as a theater again.

Russia also has close ties with china with the Treaty of Friendship (no joke) but it's only something like 20 years before it expires. It basically states that Russia and China are trading and fighting buddies for a bit. They are trying to combine to make a world economic power, so it would be best for America if we could keep that from not happening, so both will rely of America and Europe for goods and places to sell goods too. Also since Russia and china are very close with trade such as Russia giving china tech and knowledge it would be best to try and find out what tech and training they are giving the Chinese (Such as soviet era training those where scary mother fucker). What I'm trying to say make friends with Russia make very good friends and maybe 50 60 years down the rode after china's boom, when they are in need of more materials and start to get desperate and start to get more "pushy" that America will be closer allies then they are now with Russia so if anything does choose to happen we will have some one who will be on our side. look at what happen with japan Pre world war 2 and you'll see how a quick and irresponsible industrial revolution and be dangerous

It's not just America buying all there shit. it's how their military spending is going up, up, and up. estimates are saying something close to 130+ billion dollars, while they only admit to lesser then that. But it's also since Japan and the US are very close allies. and since there is still that hatred that the Japaneses people and the Chinese people have against each other.

[Rigor]

This situation isn't about what we stand to gain from this, more so of what we stand to lose by not doing anything. The article that Enkidu linked stated that America made it
clear that involving military means wasn't on the table. Georgia stands to become a member of NATO later this year or in 2009. The whole point of NATO is that if one of the allies is attacked it would be as if they all were attacked. We've paraded through Eastern Europe snatching up any good will we could, for our reputation and integrity to stay intact we cannot simply back down to Russia because they have missles too. I'm not saying the U.S. or even NATO should send troops in to halt the advancing Russian force, but Russia has to know that the world will not stand by and allow this to happen without serious repercussions. Embargo's, sanctions, and I even read a possible ousting of the G8.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union certain territories broke off from Russia and are internationally recognized as independent states. Just because 20 years ago Russia had stolen it during WW2 or some other previous war does NOT mean that it is OK for Russia to forcefully take it back. Once the Soviet Union fell apart and begged the West for help they gave up their right to forcefully keep these people, most of who don't want to be Russian, under their jurisdiction. How is one country invading another with every intention of keeping that territory at all acceptable to anyone? Especially Russia which has a track record with being shady as fuck in regards to its neighboring European states. If Russia takes Georgia and we just let them, what is keeping them from taking back every other piece of land that was once theirs?

When I said were basically their entire economy, i didnt mean to imply that no one else buys from them, but the fact is that America is the #1 customer and it doesn't make sense for either side to go to war with the other. However, our entire history with Russia has been leading up to the worst wars this world will ever see, I don't see 50 more years changing any of that history with the way were heading.

[guartz]

This really boils down to two things.

People who are well read, understand things like hegemony through strategical territorial influence. You know, people who read zbigniew brzezinski and similar authors. People like churchill, for example. Who will know exactly what I mean without looking it up.

and then others, who think they know how "countries" think and base their opinions on their bias.

[Churchill]

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union certain territories broke off from Russia and are internationally recognized as independent states. Just because 20 years ago Russia had stolen it during WW2 or some other previous war does NOT mean that it is OK for Russia to forcefully take it back.

And who is saying Russia is doing this? I see absolutely no indications of Russia trying to reclaim Georgia, you could easily argue Russia is actually supporting the international independence (ie sovereignty) of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

Even if Russia stands to gain the most from their independence or eventual return to the folds of Russian power, two regions in their countries GDP backbone, a strong statement to the UN/NATO, and a display of military efficiency and return of Russian diplomacy (read: we don't give a fuck, bitch) is making it clear Russia is in their first stages of returning to the world gangbang.

I also think Putin's background is going to allow him to make much better decisions than Stalin. This entire situation is pretty brilliantly planned by Russia and it takes someone who has been in the intelligence community, who understands the world and their biases and his goals to pull it off. Even the best plans etc...but so far so good for Russia.

[Bingbong]

I see absolutely no indications of Russia trying to reclaim Georgia, you could easily argue Russia is actually supporting the international independence (ie sovereignty) of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

You really can't though. Russian "peacekeeping" forces moving through Georgian towns blowing crap up is not protecting sovereignty of either Abkhazia or South Ossetia. There are no accounts that the Georgian military was doing anything but actively defending their territory.

Again, if Russia was really trying to protect, it would've stopped it's continuing troop movements inside the Geographical borders of Georgia proper, instead they've continued their assaults and troop movements. The rearming after signing the cease-fire is incredibly bold on Russia's part. Russia may be telling people one thing, but with any intelligence, you need only read an AP account of what's going on to see that's not the whole story.

[Churchill]

Not true.

I kind of laughed at needing only read an AP report...I've seen a few reports lol.

Anyway. Big issue here is this: If Russia stops their advance, never passes South Ossetia, never emboldens the rebels in Abkhazia, then what, if any, bargaining chips does Russia have at the negotiating table to gain better terms than their previous ones?

If Russia has troops at Gori and Poti, ready to march, a naval blockade, and the rebels in Abkhazia ready to rock, they have much more to "give up" in order to "gain" from this negotiating.

Very good play by Russia.