USA vs Russia - START

[Churchill]

Well technically I claimed it here too. I'm pretty sure you can find all of this information by looking around on open source so, this may help.

Look for reactions from all former USSR regimes, and what their current plans are in response to this. Look for the history of those USSR regimes separatists groups and how this has given them hope/emboldened. Look at how oil/gas is influencing many countries in regards to this conflict. Look at how or where Russia may help those countries and the rhetoric towards anyone helping Georgia. (Former USSR)

Also look at how the actual Georgian people feel about Russia, the history of Ossetia, and the history and verbiage of UN/NATO resolutions on this matter. I can tell you right now many of them have a slant towards Georgia being at fault for a lot of different bullshit, and this is going back a few years.

A good website I like for open source reporting is called "schema-root" which you can google. From there you can zone down into certain regions or people and pull up articles based on your search and the area, and you should get a ton of results.

Otherwise I can't really answer your question.

[guartz]

obviously if Russia wanted the capital they would have taken it already, it took them what, less then 24hrs to completely route the army, why would they wait 48hrs+ to take the capital when it's only 50 miles away.

No, if their intention was to take the capital, they would have went for the jugular as soon as possible.

Of course, most of you will think that I'm somehow pro russian because I'm somehow defending them. I mean, is it really that hard to hold two opposing ideas?

Let's have a little sick/fun thought experiment here.

Let's say there is a creepy old man and a little girl. The girl knows who the man is, and she knows that he wants her ass, because he's been eyeing her all the time. One day, the little girl meets the old man on the street, feeling somehow reckless, she drops her skirt, bends over and starts taunting him with her nether region exposed.. Nah nah, you can't touch me, nah nah. The man pulls out a gun and proceeds to pound her like an angry fist of god. There are a few people present, including you, but nobody has a gun or is willing to interfere.


Do you think

a) Feel sorry for the girl, but she was an idiot and deserves what she gets. I won't risk my life for that Darwin nominee.
b) Clearly the rapist is the aggressor. I will risk my life to safe her virtue.
c) Hey why not, we are in Japan.

[Beckwin]

is that some kind of convoluted defense for the idea everyone should have a CCW?

[Churchill]

is that some kind of convoluted defense for the idea everyone should have a CCW?

socialist. ouch at the grunt comment

[guartz]

is that some kind of convoluted defense for the idea everyone should have a CCW?

governments are only there to start wars and allow rapes man.

[aurik]

i think us gov't is a pretty cool guy. eh kills russains and doesn't afraid of anything

[guartz]

i think us gov't is a pretty cool guy. eh kills russains and doesn't afraid of anything

anything, except a few religious guys who live in a cave

[Rigor]

I pick option D. Reprimand the girl for provoking the old man by grounding her, while comforting her for the cluster bombs that were used on the civilian population within her womb. Then lock the old man in jail for however long sex offenders go, and have him become a registered sex offender. You're little experiment is retarded.

I'm confused as to what you want me to find on schema-root.org as it has redirected me to the exact sites I was going to.

Former USSR states reactions.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...zVk&refer=home

Poland and the Baltic states, all once held within the Soviet Union's embrace and now members of the European Union, rallied behind Georgia yesterday.

``Russia's aggression against sovereign neighboring country Georgia shows to the whole world that the peaceful period after the end of the Cold War has ended,'' Estonian Prime Minister Andrus Ansip said. ``Russia's actions increase security risks.''

NATO
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/...and.php?page=1

"Poland and the Poles do not want to be in alliances in which assistance comes at some point later — it is no good when assistance comes to dead people," the Polish prime minister, Donald Tusk, said on Polish television. "Poland wants to be in alliances where assistance comes in the very first hours of — knock on wood — any possible conflict."

same article

At the White House, the press secretary, Dana Perino, confirmed that senior officials had initialed the agreement. "In no way is the president's plan for missile defense aimed at Russia," she said. "In fact, it's just not even logically possible for it to be aimed at Russia, given how Russia could overwhelm it. The purpose of missile defense is to protect our European allies from any rogue threats, such as a missile from Iran."

Gas - This is the best part, as it comes from SYRIA.

http://www.aina.org/news/20080814131513.htm

Georgia is only the latest instance of Russia's plans to reassemble the "evil empire" and neuter NATO expansion, using energy as both a weapon and a means of financing its rapid military expansion. Russia has doubled its military in the past five years, thanks in large part to the "windfall profits" it has reaped from skyrocketing energy prices.
More
The Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) pipeline, in which British Petroleum is the lead partner, can carry up to a million barrels of oil a day. It runs from Kazakhstan through Azerbaijan, Georgia and Turkey and breaks Russia's stranglehold on supplying energy to Europe. Moscow currently supplies 25% of Europe's energy needs.

It's the fragile economies of Eastern Europe and the energystarved European Union that are the most immediate victims of Putin's power grab. Moscow has seized the assets of the once-private oil giant Yukos and cut off oil supplies or abruptly hiked prices to former Eastern Europe client nations that have dared to pursue economic and political policies independent from Russia.

In January 2006, Russia cut off gas supplies to Ukraine, supposedly over a pricing dispute. The pipeline disruption temporarily curtailed gas deliveries to Western Europe, sending a message that energy is also a weapon in Moscow's arsenal.

It's also in part Putin's response to NATO expansion and U.S. plans to put missile interceptors in Poland and tracking radars in the Czech Republic.

Finally, it's a message to Ukraine that a price will be paid if it pursues NATO membership as Georgia has. Russia has made clear its displeasure with Ukraine, cutting off gas supplies 2 1/2 years ago and reducing deliveries last March.

[Rigor]

Forgot this little gem
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/...sia-Energy.php

Western leaders engaged in intense diplomacy Friday to persuade Russia to pull troops out of Georgia, but regional tensions soared after a top Russian general warned that Poland could face attack over its missile defense deal with the United States.

[Kuya]

Excellent turn of events, people vote for Republicans when they are afraid and especially stupid.

[Rhyis.]

Not a bad article, I had expected it to be more about reconnaissance and battlefield familiarization patrols (which sounds like what they could very well be) but if the piece about moving forward to stop bandits and looters was true, then good job Russia.

In the strategically important city of Gori, CBC Moscow correspondent Alexandra Szacka said the situation is chaotic and the Russians clearly are not pulling out of the city just yet.

Russian and Georgian troops briefly patrolled Gori, but relations between the two sides broke down and the Georgians left. Russia said its troops were there to establish contact with the civilian administration and take over abandoned military depots.

Underlining the chaos, Szacka and Montreal-based CBC producer Marie-Ève Bédard had their car hijacked as they approached the city.

"There were several Russian tanks waiting for orders to go back and to let us into the city," she said, "and, out of the blue, an armed man, an unidentified man in uniform, started shooting, so it was kind of a panic.

"We were several journalists and humanitarian workers waiting there, and he started shooting and everybody started running. He ran right into our driver and then told him, 'Give me the keys! Give me the keys!' and our driver gave him the keys and he stole our car and everything inside and it was gone."

The CBC's Mike Hornbrook, stopped behind a Georgian military column on the road to Gori, said the Russians appear to have withdrawn at least partly from the area, creating a power vacuum that had been filled by bandits.

Gunmen have been stopping cars and robbing people, sometimes under the noses of Russian troops, he said.

"The Russians were there; they were sitting on their vehicles and they didn't try to stop them," he said, adding: "I heard one of them quoted as saying, 'We have no orders to do anything about this.'"

There's a video of it as well, I just haven't seen it on the net.

[Rigor]

Annnnd some more

Georgian civilians opinions
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7557674.stm

"I blame Mikhail Saakashvili," he said.

"He is a good guy, and I agree with what he says. But what was he thinking trying to fight the Russians? Even the Germans lost to them. How can our tiny nation win against this monster?"

More

But on Tuesday, tens of thousands came to Tbilisi's main square to back the president.

Like many, Mariam Khevsuridze told me she did not like many of his policies. But she liked it even less, she added, when the outside power told her who she should be voting for.

"I don't blame Saakashvili for this conflict," she said.

"It was a clear provocation on the Russian side, they are just punishing us for being prosperous, for being ambitious and for wanting a life that is different from theirs."

How is this different than what we've been saying?

[guartz]

well Rigor, the last time people said bad things about Mekhail they were tear gassed, beaten and locked up.

[Rigor]

Well, Guartz, tell me where I said Mekhail was an awesome dude?

[guartz]

Well, Guartz, tell me where I said Mekhail was an awesome dude?

Did you miss the point or just couldn't come up with anything to say?

[Rigor]

Did you just ignore the numerous articles I linked all condemning Russia's disproportionate attacks, or just couldn't come up with anything to say?

[Kuya]

I cannot begin to describe how annoying this whole train of argument is.

person1: No, the Russians are bad.
person2: No, the Georgians are bad.
Repeat ad nausuem.

That's an oversimplification if that wasn't obvious enough, but this shit is just obnoxious.

[guartz]

Did you just ignore the numerous articles I linked all condemning Russia's disproportionate attacks, or just couldn't come up with anything to say?

Right, so let me ask you this. Do you think all those people condemning Russia's disproportionate attacks expected Russia to just back off as soon as Georgia started bombing S.Ossetia?

Because even though i'm not an "expert" I knew that Russia was gonna walk all over georgia for this. It was expected, this is how Russia acts. Scroll back to my original topic and look.

All these articles, all these reports, it's just companies jumping on the bandwagon to paint horns on the bear for ratings, because, I dunno, it might sell their shit better. Nevermind the actual reality.

Edit: I just don't even know how else to explain it. If you still think I'm somehow defending Russia, I might as well just stop talking to you, seeing that I'm not even part of the conversation.

[Dalecia]

lol we're pissing Russia off even more.

"U.S.-Poland defense shield
A missile shield deal between Washington and Warsaw sets Russia on edge. CNN's Alphonso Van Marsh reports."

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bes...ed.for.std.cnn

[Rigor]

No I did not think that Russia would idly stand by while their citizens were being attacked, albeit in another country. I also didn't expect them to go as far as cluster bombing civilian populations.

However wrong Georgia's tactics were in their attempts to reign in part of their own country, they were in their right to do so. That territory was Georgian up until August 8th, and even Russia acknowledged that even if they supported the seperatists.

Russia could have gotten everything they wanted had they shown restraint and not killed hundreds and displaced thousands. Georgia's entrance into NATO was already on thin ice, and this would have been all that ice needed to crack. Germany and France are outspoken opponents of allowing Georgia and Ukraine into NATO and this would have been all the evidence they needed that Georgia was unfit. Russia could have also appealed to the world for the independence of those two territories and most likely it would have been done.

Now its likely that Georgia still wont be allowed into NATO and those two territories could get independence, but now the world knows what you apparently already knew that Russia still reverts back to intimidation and force to make people do what they want.