BZ Zerg Build Questions

[Nameless]

I have recently obtained Bahamut's Zaghnal and I have most of the equips and merits to zerg. I know the concept of how haste work and delay reduction etc as you can see from the sig, so this is not a haste topic but a gear suggestion discussion.

First question is, this can be answered by ppl who have used ridill or soboro for a long time, what exactly is the hit distribution on BZ? I have heard many time that it is 50/30/20 distribution, but alot of ppl are also claiming that it is 33/33/33. Do we have any test result on this?

Second question is, I understand that when you are using weapon like this, you should avoid any DA or TA equips, such as not to use brutal when you use kclub etc, but why? According to wiki (I understand you guys hate wiki, but I can't find any thing of this sort on BG wiki), that the weapon's DA or TA will first be scanned by the system, and then if the system determines that it is a single hit, it will then scan through the rest of your equips for DA or TA, thus there isn't any override if it is the case. So the real question is, why wouldn't you want to use DA or TA equip when you use BZ? Depends on what the answer to the first question is, if all the weapons of this sort have a equal hit distribution, then I can understand why not to use brutal, since the possibility of a single hit is already only 12.5%, and banking on 5% of DA on a 12.5% possibility is not worth it over using HP earring. However, if the hit distribution is always 50/xx/xx/xx, then brutal probably isn't a bad choice?

Then the last question, what is your ideal BZ zerg setup for the following two situations including food? No SV, just march x 2 and haste (semi zerg situation with no SC stun)/SV march x 2 and haste (full zerg situation ie Bv2 DL with SC stun)?

All these are under the assumption of full merit scythe DB 4/5 (sorry DS deserves 1/5) /sam and one bard.

My current overall setup is:

Bahamut's Zaghnal
Sword Strap/Platinum Grip for no SC stun situation? (Don't say Axe Grip for the HP, 120-150 additional damage in 50 hit is not worth the 2 additional hit by sword strap under 60 sec).
Walmart Turban
Pcharm or HP necklace?
Gloom Breastplate/Homam for the acc and HP and TA? (This will mean Sable cuisses for leg)
Homam glove
Homam feet
Homam leg/Sable with homam body
Cassie Earring
Intruder's Earring/Brutal or 25 HP earring or Abyssal for 4 Acc when intruder's isn't working?
Bombqueen Ring
Bloodbead or Acc ring or Blitz ring
Gigant Mantle
Swift Belt (don't have speed, so exclude that in your ideal setup cuz it will screw up all other parts and make it inpractical, so as dusk +1)
Fire Bomblet/Happy Egg?

So here it goes. I am personally leaning toward using a 2hand A+ weapon for zerg over MK (don't have ridill or Kclub) due to superior accuracy, which allows me to eat carbon. The reason I did't include situation with two brds is because if I can get SV march x 2 and acc x 2, I would just stack on HP, which is a no brainer. This is meant to find a balance between HP, haste and Acc on some of the more realistic situations.

In addition, my current setup includes well above 80% haste under situation where I get SV march x 2. The reason for keeping it that way is that I value the 30-60 sec damage as much as the 1-30 sec damage. Having a good 10% haste under the first 30 sec will avoid gear swap for the next 30 sec mid way during zerg, which can slow you down (correct me if I am wrong tho). This will also be good for situation where I have to sub anything other than sam.

Thoughts? I appreciate all input on this. Thank you in advance

[Tubbers]

Double attack / Triple attack are calculated before multi hit weapon procs. Triple attack is fine to use with BZ. You want to hit the 80% haste cap, which is pretty easy to do.


25% from 5 DB merits but 20% for you, with 4
43.3% from magic haste (~35 with no SV)

16.7%~=17% haste needed in gear with SV (or 7% with Hasso) 25% with no SV and no hasso, and 15% haste in gear with no SV + Hasso on

With SV:
Homam feet + hand + walmart turban puts you at the haste cap with Hasso. The rest all HP, with Sable Cuisses.

Without SV:
Homam feet + hand + walmart turban + swift belt puts you at the haste cap with Hasso. The rest all HP, with Gloom breastplate. The extra DB merit will remove the need for swift belt.


You get a lot of acc from using scythe over club, and you will most likely have feint on for 30s anyways, so don't worry about acc unless the HP piece for that slot is mediocre at best (Happy Egg).

So basically:

With SV==
Bahamut's Zaghnal
Sword Strap/Platinum Grip for no SC stun situation? (Don't say Axe Grip for the HP, 120-150 additional damage in 50 hit is not worth the 2 additional hit by sword strap under 60 sec).
Walmart Turban
Pcharm or HP necklace?
Gloom Breastplate/Homam for the acc and HP and TA? (This will mean Sable cuisses for leg)
Homam glove
Homam feet
Homam leg/Sable with homam body
Cassie Earring
Intruder's Earring/Brutal or 25 HP earring or Abyssal for 4 Acc when intruder's isn't working?
Bombqueen Ring
Bloodbead or Acc ring or Blitz ring
Gigant Mantle
HP Belt/Swift Belt (don't have speed, so exclude that in your ideal setup cuz it will screw up all other parts and make it inpractical, so as dusk +1)
Fire Bomblet/Happy Egg?

Without SV==
Bahamut's Zaghnal
Sword Strap/Platinum Grip for no SC stun situation? (Don't say Axe Grip for the HP, 120-150 additional damage in 50 hit is not worth the 2 additional hit by sword strap under 60 sec).
Walmart Turban
Pcharm or HP necklace?
Gloom Breastplate/Homam for the acc and HP and TA? (This will mean Sable cuisses for leg)
Homam glove
Homam feet
Homam leg/Sable with homam body
Cassie Earring
Intruder's Earring/Brutal or 25 HP earring or Abyssal for 4 Acc when intruder's isn't working?
Bombqueen Ring
Bloodbead or Acc ring or Blitz ring
Gigant Mantle
HP Belt/Swift Belt (don't have speed, so exclude that in your ideal setup cuz it will screw up all other parts and make it inpractical, so as dusk +1)
Fire Bomblet/Happy Egg?

[Darkmoon]

Pretty sure its posted in Advanced or in here somewhere, but M.Kris is hands down going to stomp BZ in damage in a Zerg, the Wepon rating is really a moot point. Anything your Zerging you will have 0 Acc issues due to Feint. If you dont have Feint, then thats the bigger issue then what Weapon Type is more accurate.

Off the top of my head I recall it going:

KC >> M.kris > Ridill >>>> Rune Chopper / Fort Axe / BZ. (This isnt including Relic Scythe i havent a clue where it fits)

When we zerg, all our Darks use KC or M.Kris atm. We did the Rune Chopper thing before the haste cape.

As far as gear, Haste and HP are about all you need and 1 Enhance Souleater effect item.

IMO the most importnat part about a DRK Zerg fight, is the Mages keeping the DRKs HP topped off, that controls your damage more then anything else in the fight.

[Tubbers]

Off the top of my head I recall it going:

KC >> M.kris > Ridill >>>> Rune Chopper / Fort Axe / BZ. (This isnt including Relic Scythe i havent a clue where it fits)

When we zerg, all our Darks use KC or M.Kris atm. We did the Rune Chopper thing before the haste cape.

As far as gear, Haste and HP are about all you need and 1 Enhance Souleater effect item.

IMO the most importnat part about a DRK Zerg fight, is the Mages keeping the DRKs HP topped off, that controls your damage more then anything else in the fight.

The last part is right, make sure your mages are on you like hawks, especially if it is something that can't be stunned like Kirin.

It's KC >>> M.Kris > Ridill > BZ > Apocalypse > Fort Axe > Regular Scythe/Axe > Rune Chopper

Rune chopper got owned hard by that update, it's more or less the worst zerg weapon. BZ isn't bad, you can get around 40-42 attacks off with it, which is pretty nice really.

[Nameless]

Yea, accuracy isn't guarantee. I was using kclub (my ls leader lets me use it for zerg fight everytime) on bv2 with sushi on, absorb acc and feint and /drg with standard haste and HP and acc gears, I parsed a miserable 33.3% accuracy. It is without a second brd to do accuracy song obviously, but it shows that it isn't a guarantee even with feint.... (everyone else was at around 88-95% with their A+ weapons). Tho on another occasion, I parsed 66% under the same condition without absorb acc, so yea, that last one was weird... Using a scythe pretty much eliminate any sort of problem like that.

Rune chopper isn't a zerg weapon anymore. It used to be the only thing other than apoc that get you to 93.3% haste, but since the cap is 80% now, the 9% haste from it is meaningless. So you are basically zerging with a GA that has nothing on it.

So does anyone know what is the hit distribution? 50/30/20 or 33/33/33?

Also, all the above are for the first 30 sec. Would you swap for full haste after LR wore?

[The Stig]

It's KC >>> M.Kris > Ridill > BZ > Apocalypse > Fort Axe > Regular Scythe/Axe > Rune Chopper

Where would Octave Club stand in that "chart"? For a DRK at 72.

[Nameless]

KC > OC >> the rest

[Tubbers]

Where would Octave Club stand in that "chart"? For a DRK at 72.

You mean as opposed to being 75? A bit better than MKris. You can still get 19% haste (Dusk +1 and Speed Belt, 15% without) at 72 DRK with /DRG, so it's pretty damn good. You're missing a lot of HP, but the hit count will put it as the #2 zerg weapon easily.

[Midnightjade]

Good thread - I am also currently leveling DRK and recently obtained a BZ. Very useful stuff.

Did anyone answer the single/double/triple attack % question?

Also, I still don't really understand why or why not to use DA equips (Brutal, Askar) with this type of weapon. Hate to throw on a Brutal if it's going to be counterproductive (or an Askar Korazin, but I don't think you'd be using that with this weapon anyhow would you?).

Help appreciated, thanks. ^^

[Nameless]

I believe the arguement is that which is applied first, the equip DA and TA or the weapon DA and TA. So assuming it is 33/33/33 on BZ and you use brutal, and equip DA is applied before weapon, in the end, in 100 attack arounds, you are going to have 100*0.05*2+(95*0.33)+(95*0.33*2)+(95*0.33*3) = 198 hits. If the weapon is applied first, then you got 33+66+99+(33*0.05) = 199.65. If you don't use any DA and TA in the equip, just the weapon, you will have 33+66+99 = 198. So yes, if the equip is applied first, then there is no benefit.

In my original post, based on wiki I thought the weapon is applied first, then result in me thinking why not, but knowing that the equip DA and TA is applied first, then it is a no brainer.

[Nameless]

However, if it is 50/30/20 distribution, then the result will be 171.5 vs 170, meaning having brutal there will net you an additional 1.5 hits. Tho in reality, having a earring at the slot will gain you 3-5 damage per hit, so in the end, having a HP earring there is still better than 5% DA.

So yea, using DA earring instead of HP earring at the slot is not as good when using multi hit weapons.

[Tubbers]

Good thread - I am also currently leveling DRK and recently obtained a BZ. Very useful stuff.

Did anyone answer the single/double/triple attack % question?

Also, I still don't really understand why or why not to use DA equips (Brutal, Askar) with this type of weapon. Hate to throw on a Brutal if it's going to be counterproductive (or an Askar Korazin, but I don't think you'd be using that with this weapon anyhow would you?).

Help appreciated, thanks. ^^

It's generally assumed to be ( 1/3 | 1/3 | 1/3 ) or rather in general it's assumed that there is equal distribution among all possibilities for "occasionally attacks x times" weapons. I don't remember seeing any testing on BZ specifically, but I believe Ridill and KC tests have shown results that come very close. I might be making it up, but I'm almost certain I've seen those before.

The double attack trait will kick in before the weapon proc goes off, so for a KC it will actually lower your average swings per attack round. If it was calculated after, it would increase it. For a weapon with an average of 2 attacks per round, like Ridill/BZ, the Brutal will most likely not hurt you, but it isn't helping you either. It is like equipping a +2 Stone Resist earring -- it's not hurting you but it's not doing anything useful for you either.

Edit: lol Nameless keeps beating me by minutes

[Neosutra]

I dont see how merc kris blows BZ out of the water. You get less delay (and thus more attack rounds) but at the loss of alot of accuracy and more maintanance from the mages (since BZ will actually do some base damage that will help keeped you topped off).

[ubermonkey]

Minor hijack, but how does fort axe compare to just using a really low delay dagger?

[Amele]

based on testing by a variety of players on ridill and soboro, (which have similar hit rate distributions relative to each other, and presumably BZ falls in the same category) the effect of double attack gear was at best 'blank' and at worst reduced your swing rate slightly.

DA and TA from traits/gear/etc appear to be checked before these weapons' multihits. the multihits are not DA or TA - although the effect is functionally the same. It is possible that the behavior we see where DA has a slight decreasing effect is due to a particular trait of the FFXI semi-random number generator. (possibly that the results in near tick checks are too close together so you tend to "roll" low in batches and "roll" high in batches when checking many times quickly)

TA is probably fine to wear, it will either have no net effect or a slightly positive effect based on observed behavior with DA.

it is probable that the mix is 30/50/20, this is close to the observed behavior from Ridill and Soboro.

[Ruiner]

Bahamut's Zaghnal also allows you to use Desperate Blows and Hasso, thus allowing you to sub in more HP in place of Haste.

[Tubbers]

I dont see how merc kris blows BZ out of the water. You get less delay (and thus more attack rounds) but at the loss of alot of accuracy and more maintanance from the mages (since BZ will actually do some base damage that will help keeped you topped off).

I don't see anyone saying MK blows BZ out of the water, the only thing that does that is a KC. The chart I outlined is the raw damage potential, not the actual damage. If anything BZ is nice just because you don't need to change SJ to use it properly, so for something like DL/Ein it's nice.

Minor hijack, but how does fort axe compare to just using a really low delay dagger?

You'll get about 28 attacks off with a Fort Axe, a 150 delay dagger will get you about 36 attacks. Looking at Souleater damage, that's 8 SE swings more from the dagger, but for little base D. Let's just pretend the dagger has 11 D. 11 * 36 = 396, Fort axe is 64 D. 64 * 28 = 1792. 1792 - 396 = 1396 Base Damage more from Fort. Axe. 8 swings is probably about 1600 damage. Damage-wise (with 100% acc) they are very close, but Fort Axe gives you the benefit of more acc, and keeping your HP up. If you're getting SV Minuets, Fort. Axe will destroy the dagger. Also keep in mind I'm being generous with the dagger delay.

[Nameless]

it is probable that the mix is 30/50/20, this is close to the observed behavior from Ridill and Soboro.

That is indeed very interesting and agrees with what I have seen so far from it.

[Amele]

That is indeed very interesting and agrees with what I have seen so far from it.

SE has slowly done a better job of standardizing stat descriptions, so I would expect that all weapons with 'Occasionally Attacks 2 to 3 times' behave more or less the same. (similar to how all "virtue stone equipped: Occasionally attacks twice" weapons have similar proc rates etc.)

[Tubbers]

Hmm, if that's the case, does KC demonstrate some similar quirky distribution?