The Campaign Continues! (08/15/2008)

[Cutriss]

I may be wrong and there may be other factors at play, but I usually have a ton of mobs after me when curing mostly NPCs only. Lots of angry yellow named mobs.... !

Yep, same here, and it doesn't take much. I watch a group of NPCs whittle a mob by 25% (which has to be around 5000 HP or so), I use two Cure Vs, and suddenly I've got a bunch of orcs inviting me to their all-you-can-eat green-fist buffet.

[Brill Weave]

not to mention enimity doesn't seem to generate from curing NPCs.

I'm going to have to disagree on that, at least in one circumstance. One of the Windy generals was fighting Moo Ouzi the Swiftblade and was down to about 1/5 health. So I started dumping cures on her. After general dropped, I was next in the hate line apparently despite the fact that I had never actually engaged the NM.

[vrumpt]

not to mention enimity doesn't seem to generate from curing NPCs.

Enmity does in fact generate from curing npcs, its just that they often generate enmity themselves to the point where curing them does nothing (until the npc dies).

Ive been in situations where Invincible Shield died whom i was trying to cure and save, and one of the mobs attacking him came after me and got me before he died.

Then i RR and more mobs have finished with the npc that they were distracted with came after me immediatly.

I get a raise finally and other mobs come after me immediatly because they had become idle by the time i got a raise, and enmity mechanics need fixing.


All because i was curing the npc.

[arus2001]

Forcing enmity gain for EXP is a bad idea. Imagine being a WHM, coming to the tail end of a battle where you see some bodies, some people with low HP, and the only mob left is somewhere out of sight being soloed. You patch them all up, toss out some raises, and basically make like 800 EXP. 10 minutes later when the soloist finally finishes, you get jack squat.

Screw that.

[Guppy]

Then i RR and more mobs have finished with the npc that they were distracted with came after me immediatly.

This is a definite problem for people who curebomb the NPCs -- dying doesn't necessarily wipe enmity. I've had the NM General track me down halfway across the zone while I'm resting off weakness -- including times after I've taken off tags. I've learned since that if I take off tags during an active campaign, I need to zone out immediately.

[Eldelphia]

I'm amused. Largest complaint from peeps in my shell is that casters don't cure them. Peeps here are actually moaning about being cured. If I see someone in real trouble and cure them first - check their SJ later - I don't think I'm in the wrong here. Oh and screw you if you think my SCH isn't going to AoE cures just cos you happen to be in the way. Want to solo, take the mob away from the main pack and go live/die in comparative privacy.

Oh and SCH hate is fantastic at 65-70. Fastest and most fun way to die in Campaign so far for me is...

Light Weather
Rapture
Accession
Cure IV

Run SCH run! Oops, dead. Perhaps when I have slightly more -EMN gear it won't be quite so bad but it is entertaining when I'm bored. And at least I'm taking damage. I mostly just dispell and silence all the mobs the 75 RDMs can't be bothered to enfeeble.

I will however having read this be more careful about which buffs I use on SMN. Not that I use it much there cos I always need xp/buffer elsewhere. I prefer haste/stoneskin/phalanx but am guilty of the occasional rolling thunder... My DNC is 6 at most, didn't even think about overwriting stuff.

SCH/RDM with a dagger ftw

If I go WHM, I go WHM/NIN and pretend I can melee. Only excuse my hydra brais have to come out. But if I melee I don't forget I can cure.

[Cutriss]

Forcing enmity gain for EXP is a bad idea. Imagine being a WHM, coming to the tail end of a battle where you see some bodies, some people with low HP, and the only mob left is somewhere out of sight being soloed. You patch them all up, toss out some raises, and basically make like 800 EXP. 10 minutes later when the soloist finally finishes, you get jack squat.

Screw that.

I think this would still work, for one reason.

As far as anyone knows (according to Kanican) Raise doesn't generate enmity. But...what if it actually *does* and nobody knew it because the target player has lost all enmity, and so you're not actually performing an assisting action?

Since hate *isn't* shed upon death in Campaign, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Raise actually does incur a tiny amount of hate, but we just never knew it.

And at any rate, there's no reason they couldn't change it to be the case. I doubt it would have any real-world impact other than to make the math work.

[arus2001]

Isn't there still the whole radial aspect where once outside a mob's circle of awareness, you could do absolutely anything and gain no hate for it? That's kind of the point I'm making.

[Crisco]

Isn't there still the whole radial aspect where once outside a mob's circle of awareness, you could do absolutely anything and gain no hate for it? That's kind of the point I'm making.

Anywhere outside 30.0 iirc. I use it quite often for converting and SMN solo. It's an invaluable strategy that not many ppl use to it's capacity.

[Maxxthepenguin]

Forcing enmity gain for EXP is a bad idea. Imagine being a WHM, coming to the tail end of a battle where you see some bodies, some people with low HP, and the only mob left is somewhere out of sight being soloed. You patch them all up, toss out some raises, and basically make like 800 EXP. 10 minutes later when the soloist finally finishes, you get jack squat.

Screw that.

I've never seen a mob be soloed for that long outside of visible range. I've never had a campaign that really went like that. Your situation isn't really worth considering.

[benny]

Isn't there still the whole radial aspect where once outside a mob's circle of awareness, you could do absolutely anything and gain no hate for it? That's kind of the point I'm making.

The actual way this works is based on where the target of your enmity action is in relation to the mobs. Whatever cure targets are within the radius to be noticed by the mobs (I think it is actually 25') will count towards your hate, no matter where you yourself are.

[Deftscythe]

This is the worst update teaser cycle ever. I wish they had waited to start releasing the news bites until they were close enough to not miss any days.

[arus2001]

I've never seen a mob be soloed for that long outside of visible range. I've never had a campaign that really went like that. Your situation isn't really worth considering.

Ah yes, the "I've never seen it, so it never happens." approach. That's the kinda crap that breeds unintended consequences since not all sides get addressed.

There's not always someone around to widescan, and if you know where mobs come from, it's not hard to pick one off if you are a soloist. I know it doesn't take me 10 minutes to kill a mob alone (maybe a Gigas, but they're HP whores), but not everyone is effective at meting out the offense while maintaining a survivable defense.

I remember one time I'd just went through the Maw to Saruta and saw a BLM running by with Swiftblade on his tail, perpetually using his self-buff or trying to out of range Feather Storm. I didn't much think of it at the time, figuring he was trying to avoid death. I go sign up for the battle, we take out a few of the remaining lackies, but eventually the battle doesn't stop. "Did Swiftblade ever come back?" I wondered. So I run back south, and the NM still chasing the guy at the fucking southwest tower.

Seeing how the mob AI was pretty dumb, I got hate on it and eventually drug it back to the tower. The BLM tried to get it back, but I'd already had a decent start on him for both enmity and distance. Of course, by the time I got back, there were more people there than when I'd left, and they wound up getting shit for EXP because the battle hadn't ended 15 minutes sooner than it should've and they instead would've gone to another zone.

The fact there are some soloists here grumbling about healers has me surprised you've never seen something like the above happen. You might not be the WHM in this case. Maybe you're the melee that winds up waiting for the next wave that never comes. Regardless, people get screwed. I know I like to solo because it's about the only way I can keep up with someone who song/spell buff in a 25 minute time frame, but fuck, improve the reward for the people risking their neck instead of screwing the guy you had no interest being around anyway.

Either way, Raise drawing enmity when you've done nothing else is BS. I've raised plenty of people sitting dead by a pack of idle/patrolling mobs and never had them suddenly bee-lining for me even if the idiot raises within aggro and dies immediately after.

[Maxxthepenguin]

These aren't fucking civil rights, this is a game. Rare circumstances such as those are not good enough objections to ideas that fix actual problems.

[arus2001]

And the "problem" is people gaining EXP in a way you don't like? Well, shit, that gives PUPs ammo to want TP burns nerfed because they sure as hell aren't first choice.

Lag's a flimsy excuse since you should be fighting away from the arbiters in all beastmen zones except for maybe Jugner. I also find it hard to believe that if 5 people around an idle NPC bother you that 15 engaged on a mob with another 20 NPCs around doesn't. This isn't like 2005 Valkurm where 180+ people in zone is causing literal server lag. You're probably lucky to see 50+ these days outside of cities.

[Flarega]

Sorry, but you're going to have to actually play the game if you want to level up.

[arus2001]

Ah, I missed the memo where it no longer takes time to do or legit players never use it. My bad, keep breaking rules by MPKing thinking you know they're breaking them. Really, if this were so dire and game-breaking like 2H update v1, it would've been emergency patched long, long ago.

Not much of a stretch to see why people do it, but you know damn well SE's alternative low-level EXP method won't be nearly as competitive while simultaneously being more aggravating (I'm just seeing a bunch of EXP scroll fetch quests that send you to the middle of fuck all nowhere to farm/click a point). A slight moral victory over people you think botting isn't worth screwing people who utilize the system legitimately. Chocobo Diggers and Fishermen could probably tell a tale or two about that.

[Flarega]

I don't MPK bard bots. I'd rather spend my time in campaign actually campaigning. But, do I think people should be able to level up by standing in one place and singing? No, I see that as an exploit.

Oh, I'm also a fisherman and I like the new system more than the old one, but I might be in the minority there.

[arus2001]

It's fine to see it as an exploit. Though, I just wonder what others would have like a level 40 MNK/WHM or similar do. Is it fair to demand they pay 300k for a couple Astral Rings just to get 50 MP and the subsequent 9-10 EXP for a Cure II if it does the full 90+ they could only do 4-5 of before having to rest 2-3 minutes?

My main point on the issue is there is no fair alternative for all jobs or people without dual-boxed PLs or the ability to solo pets. If you told me to solo like 54-55 on EP/DCs in Signet areas, I'd tell you go to hell, too.

[Flarega]

I agree with that, but I don't think that all of a sudden makes going /brd fine. I think you need to separate the two issues here. I think that /brd is an exploit, and you think that there needs to be more alternative ways to exp. Fine. But saying /brd is justified because there are no alternative ways to exp is wrong.