The Campaign Continues! (08/15/2008)

[Ace-o-fire]

snitches get stitches

god damn that, i ripped one of my stitches... from the loling i did.

edit: yea i think brd is pretty broke.

and i do think they need to push people out of the city. It's getting bad when i cant even spend more then 10 mins in the zone before pol kicks me out. i don't mind the /brd exploit to much. if anything make a new tag possible once every 15 mins.

[Freysi]

Furthermore, killing /BRD to "reduce lag" is a particularly feeble argument, given that Squenix's stated goal is to increase participation in Campaign. So if they replace all those low-level singers with people that are fighting and casting and WSing and being hit by AOEs, isn't lag worse than when you started?

It would help lag because most of those people doing /brd won't take part in campaign normally. They'll just go xp elsewhere.

[Toth]

This delay between update teasers is troubling.

[Xanthe]

They're just waiting to drop a huge bomb on us tomorrow (or next week).

[DaGod]

Hopefully...

(annnnnnd what if.... there is nothing more to say about this update? )

[Corrderio]

I hope they add more, I still haven't heard anything about new ranks which is bad news for me since I want that Iron Ram body for it's looks. And the fact I don't have a Valor Surcoat yet.

[Maxxthepenguin]

How is seeking XXX/BRD while doing it and having proper gear ready to go diluting the pool? Does your /sea all not work on past zones? I'd really love to live in some bizzarro world FFXI where I'd always get an invite the moment I flagged, but I'd rather not sit in my MH looking at a spinning moogle waiting for that to happen when there's an option, either.

That's not happening. I run by the song spammers and they aren't lfp, actually they're usually anon. You might, but I don't know or care about you. You can talk like the song spammers are wanting to lfp, but they're not.

Meanwhile, if SE didn't want sub-60s doing Campaign, there's this wonderful thing called a minimum level requirement that they've put on things like Dynamis and Assaults. Frankly, I think people would take that better than messing with numbers and the tag system in what sounds like a change for the worse. For now, they just penalize EXP in 20% increments every 15 levels. Fair enough when you realize something like WHM/BRD getting 450 EXP every 5 minutes at level 10 would be nuts. Instead they'd get 90. Crikey, he'll be soloing AV in no time!

There are many, many ways that the design of Campaign shows up as being a 60+ event. The mob strength, the level of the rewards, and the under 60 penalty all strongly point to such things. They didn't make it a hard limit because hard limits kind of such and if somebody can still contribute, despite the difficulties, then they should get something. You aren't contributing.

Sure, though, you can try to spin it as if I get 2 levels Campaigning one day, the next some party 2 levels lower wouldn't have me to choose from. Meanwhile, me gaining that same 2 levels could open me up to a party that does. Is your linkshell leadership so back asswards that you're afraid of these people who apparently won't know their jobs coming in and ruining everything? What a job does in FFXI isn't exactly a difficult to thing to figure out. Hell, sometimes what a job does in EXP isn't what it does in endgame.

The many, many DRKs who don't know how to cast dark magic effectively or time Abs-TP at all BECAUSE they leveled WAR and MNK to 75 say otherwise.

Some of us, maybe, are also actually sick of being at the beck and call of five other assholes that think the only way to play the game is their way and become so hyper-critical (No, not a typo) the moment you suggest something isn't quite going right (Be it camp, party layout, who's pulling, how SATA's being set up, whatever). Now, before you try to spin that into me being the only asshole, I don't care if people prefer the party mechanic. I just want a fucking choice in the matter, and the default, "Go play WoW, FFXI isn't for you!" reply isn't one worth me spitting at. It's classic SE ignoring a problem that HAS had people quitting. Which, unsurprisingly, narrows the party pool further.

They have made duoing/trioing very feasible. People don't do it often, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. That is playing the game. /BRDing isn't.

When you've got 5 or more 75s, another jog on the treadmill isn't suddenly gonna teach you something you didn't know if your head isn't up your ass and you do a bit of research, particularly when new jobs come around. Remove the option to come and go from meaningful, hassle-free EXP as I please at any level range without trying to shove the BST mechanic down my throat, don't be surprised if I put up a fight about it and remain skeptical about SE's "solution" to the problem.

So you basically want free exp as a solution. You want to not have to play the game to play the game. If you don't want to level a fucking job, you don't have to. There is no shoving down your throat. Maybe your LS is shoving you needing a job down your throat. Maybe you have a compulsive need to get a Maat's Cap. That's not the game's problem, that's yours. If you don't want to level a new job, don't.

You're not going to be able to just get stupid exp anymore. You're going to get no sympathy. Shut up and play the game.

I also literally cannot believe that people think that stopping /brd spamming decreases participation in campaign. They aren't fucking doing campaign.

[Cutriss]

The many, many DRKs who don't know how to cast dark magic effectively or time Abs-TP at all BECAUSE they leveled WAR and MNK to 75 say otherwise.

1. You still have to skill up in most cases.
2. Is there a measurable difference difference between a naturally sucky player and one who sucks at JOB because he didn't actually play with it?
3. A sucky player probably wouldn't know to /BRD anyway.

But whatever, not worth arguing this anymore (not that it ever was). This has really boiled down to the whole "pre-nerf" elitism argument, where people are boasting because they got their XP "the one true way". You don't really care if someone knows what they're doing while /BRDing, all you see is someone that has it easier than you because of your own stance against it.

[Maxxthepenguin]

1. You still have to skill up in most cases.
2. Is there a measurable difference difference between a naturally sucky player and one who sucks at JOB because he didn't actually play with it?
3. A sucky player probably wouldn't know to /BRD anyway.

But whatever, not worth arguing this anymore (not that it ever was). This has really boiled down to the whole "pre-nerf" elitism argument, where people are boasting because they got their XP "the one true way". You don't really care if someone knows what they're doing while /BRDing, all you see is someone that has it easier than you because of your own stance against it.

Thanks for telling me what I care about.

Yes you have to skill up, but that isn't practical application
I know people who are naturally good at some things but not other things. Practice actually helps.

I don't care if you get your exp ENMing, helping with CoP missions, exp scrolling (due to the infeasibility of large scale use), 6 man party, solo, duo, trio, questing, besieged, campaign, campaign ops (once again, small scale), or any of the other ways I can't think of. There is no "one true way." The important thing is that it is actually playing the fucking game. Spamming songs is not playing the game.

You have the choice not to level. If you don't want to level, don't do it.

[arus2001]

So you basically want free exp as a solution. You want to not have to play the game to play the game. If you don't want to level a fucking job, you don't have to. There is no shoving down your throat. Maybe your LS is shoving you needing a job down your throat. Maybe you have a compulsive need to get a Maat's Cap. That's not the game's problem, that's yours. If you don't want to level a new job, don't.

Free would be stepping into the MH, hitting one button, then having an instant 75. There's the whole time investment factor where any legit player plopping 3 hours into Campaign a day doing the /brd thing would need at least 3 weeks to go from 1 to 75. That 3 weeks could be spent doing other things likely more productive than what adding another 75 to someone's resume would add in this day and age. You might not call the lost time a sacrifice, but if you're someone that can't play 6+ hours every day and afford that nebulous wait of party formation, it gains some appeal.

The funny thing about people MPKing is it could behave like Conquest and every death the beastmen score, one meter can rise in their favor, while another falls for us. Shit leveling up/down hints at that. Meanwhile, we also don't know if the combined EXP accrued from all people in the zone isn't somehow applied to a condition for us (Morale strikes me as the most likely candidate). They may very well be helping you, but since the results aren't obvious, it's easier to dismiss them as leeches and try to kill them off or declare they aren't worth attention. At SE's own words, there's much about Campaign we don't know.

As for being high level only by design, in general practice I agree. In terms of rewards, not so much so. Why would a level 75 need a level 50 claymore? lolsacrarium? The level 68 sets are decent for their level for some jobs, and maybe a bit beyond, but most have superior alternatives later on. Some of this will fix itself at later ranks, sure, but SE's dangling that proverbial carrot to get us to level other stuff. When you can't level, though, what good are those ultimately temporary items and stockpiling AN?

Other low-level Campaign options at the moment consist of various Ops, but the tag system screws that out of being a meaningful alternative. 2400 EXP a week isn't gonna get anyone to 75 soon, let alone, say 50. Now, if you could get that in an hour of doing Ops? Sweet. And look, contribution! Unfortunately, that's almost too sensible for SE to consider. There are plenty of other at-battle ideas they could run with, too. Particularly regarding intel gathering, setting up ambushes, or tending to NPCs in the fray. And if that's too hard for the 3 guys SE has locked in a basement coding our updates, maybe they could RMT some more accessories and actually put the money they're gouging from players toward development. But that's just crazy talk on my end.

[Kaslo]

Arus just go the fuck away

[Maxxthepenguin]

Explain how /brd song spamming actually is playing the job you're leveling. That's the point.

Oh and explain how song spamming isn't botter friendly. We didn't even touch on the bots, though they seem to be prevalent.

[Spider-Dan]

It would help lag because most of those people doing /brd won't take part in campaign normally. They'll just go xp elsewhere.

...except that the stated goal is to increase participation. So Squenix's objective in all of this is to replace all the /BRDs with people actually fighting.

Which would increase the lag.

[Kaslo]

...except that the stated goal is to increase participation. So Squenix's objective in all of this is to replace all the /BRDs with people actually fighting.

Which would increase the lag.

The difference is those people creating lag would actually be doing something instead of nothing like /brds are now.

[The Blackrose]

The difference is those people creating lag would actually be doing something instead of nothing like /brds are now.

Drats, beaten to the punch.

Someone want to tell me how /BRD is participating? When was holding your dick in your hand considered participating in an orgy? Next thing you'll tell me is people fight over claiming Vrtra.

[Spider-Dan]

Explain how /brd song spamming actually is playing the job you're leveling. That's the point.

I don't care if you get your exp ENMing, helping with CoP missions, exp scrolling (due to the infeasibility of large scale use), 6 man party, solo, duo, trio, questing, besieged, campaign, campaign ops (once again, small scale), or any of the other ways I can't think of.

So /BRDing in Campaign is cheating my way through the game, but if I earn scrolls on one job, job change in MH, and use them on another job, this is perfectly acceptable... because it would take a lot longer to do it? Outstanding logic, there.

Essentially, you are saying that the problem with /BRD is NOT that it allows people to level without "learning valuable job experience", but that it's too fast compared to exp scrolling.

On a side note, you do realize that you are arguing for exp parties as an invaluable tool of FFXI education, right? Maybe you should take a step back and consider which game you are talking about, here.

[Spider-Dan]

The difference is those people creating lag would actually be doing something instead of nothing like /brds are now.

And you would still be lagged. So your complaint of "too much lag" is irrelevant, since the proposed solution (nerfs for /BRD plus carrots for new players) would not resolve this problem.

[Faithe]

Isn't the entire point of campaigning is to get AN or EXP?

Contribute to campaign is good and all but it never ends, you CANNOT ever win the war no matter how much you contribute. So what's the point? Hey if people can get more exp by spamming bard songs than actually contributing then more power to them. What ever contribution you give isn't going to stop the beastman from coming back. ROFL there will be some serious bitching if campaign actually stopped though.


On a side note, about one week left before September and no other update news . . . this update is going to suck. Go go fellowship, chocobo, new battlesystem, and ninja new enmity ja ftl

[Maxxthepenguin]

So /BRDing in Campaign is cheating my way through the game, but if I earn scrolls on one job, job change in MH, and use them on another job, this is perfectly acceptable... because it would take a lot longer to do it? Outstanding logic, there.

Essentially, you are saying that the problem with /BRD is NOT that it allows people to level without "learning valuable job experience", but that it's too fast compared to exp scrolling.

On a side note, you do realize that you are arguing for exp parties as an invaluable tool of FFXI education, right? Maybe you should take a step back and consider which game you are talking about, here.

We're not talking a minor difference in speed. Yes, it is the speed that is the problem because the speed changes the motivation and purpose. Because of how slow and limited ops, scrolls, etc are, they are supplementary. If you focus purely on those, it would take far too long to level to be feasible. Nobody in their right mind would do such a thing. By making the non-participatory exp unlimited and fast, suddenly it becomes an actual alternative. You can level a job pretty fast on the exp that /brd spamming can get you. You have to actually look at the effects that things such as rate have to have a fucking clue. The purpose of leveling in these games is that your experience with the job leads you to become more powerful over time. Hell, that was why Exp was made as a game mechanic. It's called experience for a reason.

And yes, actually playing the job is invaluable experience. You're the one who limited that to exp parties, not me.

What ever contribution you give isn't going to stop the beastman from coming back

I don't shower either. I mean shit, I'm just going to be dirty again tomorrow

[Jaffar]

So, someone who takes rdm from 20-37 only using exp scrolls obtained on another job has gained that 'experience' legitimately, yet someone who goes, say rdm/brd singing & self buffing on the actual job in campaign isn't. Got it.