The Campaign Continues! (08/15/2008)

[Rivieras]

I hope they add more, I still haven't heard anything about new ranks which is bad news for me since I want that Iron Ram body for it's looks. And the fact I don't have a Valor Surcoat yet.

Same - sad part is the damn drop just isn't coming, not like were not cleaning up the damned zone.

Hopefully the new Ranks will add more than just the Bodies and the items are worth while. Sitting at 200k AN and growing, blow me i know others are over in the mils.

[Flarega]

If you actually think that /brd is a fair alternative to get exp and shouldn't be patched you are fucking delusional.

[Max™]

The real problem isn't just the /Brd people.

It's the nerobots, which is akin to showing up to a merit party, and afking without being kickable.

Do you think it's ok for people to just afk in parties and have others level them up while they're afk doing nothing?

Does that seem fair for some strange reason?

Then why is it fair if you aren't actually making a party of people work to help you? You're still just standing around afk watching TV while you let the game masturbate itself to 75 for you.

[Jaffar]

Do you think it's ok for people to just afk in parties and have others level them up while they're afk doing nothing?

Does that seem fair for some strange reason?

Then why is it fair if you aren't actually making a party of people work to help you? You're still just standing around afk watching TV while you let the game masturbate itself to 75 for you.

Difference is that buff spamming is leeching off of SE's design, afking in a party is leeching off your party member's efforts. Again, as I mentioned before, someone leveling a subjob up only using exp scrolls from 20-37 certainly hasn't formed any parties, nor experienced the job they are leveling up.

[Spider-Dan]

The purpose of leveling in these games is that your experience with the job leads you to become more powerful over time. Hell, that was why Exp was made as a game mechanic. It's called experience for a reason.

So the "experience" of buffing and refreshing tags is somehow less enlightening than the "experience" of opening your inventory and using a scroll. Right.

And yes, actually playing the job is invaluable experience. You're the one who limited that to exp parties, not me.

Ummm, since the entire point of discussion is /BRD exping in Campaign, what the hell ELSE could you be referring to? Does /BRDing in Campaign somehow reduce one's ability to learn from participating in CoP missions? Or skillup parties? Or Dynamis?

If you /BRDed your way to 75 instead of exping normally, then the only thing you necessarily missed out on was exp parties. This is not some sort of crazily complex statement.

[ringthree]

So /BRDing in Campaign is cheating my way through the game, but if I earn scrolls on one job, job change in MH, and use them on another job, this is perfectly acceptable... because it would take a lot longer to do it? Outstanding logic, there.

Essentially, you are saying that the problem with /BRD is NOT that it allows people to level without "learning valuable job experience", but that it's too fast compared to exp scrolling.

On a side note, you do realize that you are arguing for exp parties as an invaluable tool of FFXI education, right? Maybe you should take a step back and consider which game you are talking about, here.

I think you may be confused. Lag, leveling, whatever, is completely irrelevant, because SE has pretty much come out and flatly stated that going /BRD is not what they want, not what they intended and they are going to get rid of it.

So even if you think its the best thing since sliced bread, you can say good bye to it. And don't try to defend it with the old "well there were other good things that they didn't intend" because this isn't a good thing. It's a lazy thing, it's a botter thing, it's a lame thing, but it's not a good thing.

[Spider-Dan]

I think you may be confused. Lag, leveling, whatever, is completely irrelevant, because SE has pretty much come out and flatly stated that going /BRD is not what they want, not what they intended and they are going to get rid of it.

Thank you for restating the first post. Had you read any of the posts that followed, you might have noticed that some people have attempted to rationalize Squenix's action by complaining about things like "too much lag" and "you don't learn how to play the job right." Those are the flimsy objections which are being disputed.

If your wish is to simply acknowledge official updates without critical evaluation, you don't need to visit a forum for that.

[Kaslo]

And you would still be lagged. So your complaint of "too much lag" is irrelevant, since the proposed solution (nerfs for /BRD plus carrots for new players) would not resolve this problem.

My complaint was too much unjustified lag. I can justify lag from people actually participating.

[Maxxthepenguin]

somehow my edit turned into a double post

[Maxxthepenguin]

So the "experience" of buffing and refreshing tags is somehow less enlightening than the "experience" of opening your inventory and using a scroll. Right.

Now you're just being a douche. I did my "why speed matters for fucking idiots" thing, and it seems to go over your head.

Ummm, since the entire point of discussion is /BRD exping in Campaign, what the hell ELSE could you be referring to? Does /BRDing in Campaign somehow reduce one's ability to learn from participating in CoP missions? Or skillup parties? Or Dynamis?

If you /BRDed your way to 75 instead of exping normally, then the only thing you necessarily missed out on was exp parties. This is not some sort of crazily complex statement.

You completely ignored what I am saying. But I listed other things besides exp parties that could also get you exp to help you get to 75.

So here's a question, if /brd is a good way to get exp for all jobs, what is the point of exp in the game design to begin with? Is having to level jobs at all merely a hurdle designed to squeeze time out of your life? Is there possibly a reason for exp in any RPG?

Why did they nerf rusty caps btw?

[Flarega]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

"Well, SE hasn't introduced any new ways to exp low level jobs so that means I'm free to exploit campaign" is logically retarded. Sure, bending the rules will help the issue get addressed but then going to say that they just shouldn't change anything because they'll fuck everything up is again basing your argument off fallacies and assumptions, and is wrong.

[Spider-Dan]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

"Well, SE hasn't introduced any new ways to exp low level jobs so that means I'm free to exploit campaign" is logically retarded.

DEF/VIT calculation is far more broken than Campaign. Utsusemi "fixes" this problem. Equally logically retarded, yet riots have failed to ensue.

If it solves a problem, and it doesn't hurt anyone (in any significant manner), why not go with it? This is precisely what has kept Squenix from dropping a safe on NIN.

[Maxxthepenguin]

So, do you actually think, from a game design standpoint, that leveling 20 different jobs should be done the exact same way, using the same songs and nothing else until 75? Does that actually make sense to you in a game?

And god damn, my rusty cap analogy was fucking awesome.

[Indalecia]

For the sole reason of Terra- er...Spider-Dan to bitch about it, obviously.

[Kabbalah]

So, someone who takes rdm from 20-37 only using exp scrolls obtained on another job has gained that 'experience' legitimately, yet someone who goes, say rdm/brd singing & self buffing on the actual job in campaign isn't. Got it.

Sounds right to me. Consider that most of the people who post here probably have something of the Protestant work ethic in them, which means if you want something, you're going to have to work for it. The risks involved in obtaining some scrolls is small, but it's a risk that means you have to invest a fair share of attention into the matter as well as a considerable amount of time and effort purchasing the equipment and spells that would make this trip possible; also, that seems to be the logic behind the design of SE's scroll quests, so players feel as though they're running the gauntlet and observing the spirit of the rules. So if I use my fully-geared out NIN 75 to get scrolls for my RDM subjob that's never seen any real action, then yes, that's legitimately-gained experience. It's like using the funds I've earned from my job to [help] pay my way through grad school: I've already worked for my reward, and how I choose to spend and use it is my own business.

On the other hand, barding your way through campaign is considered illegitimate for a couple of reasons. The one that I'd like to focus on is that campaign battle is sort of like Communism: everyone does some work, everyone gets a share of the rewards, everyone's happy. Unlike Communism, campaign has a seemingly unlimited pool of rewards to distribute. This in itself isn't a problem because the 'work' is easy as hell (try to hit mobs, cure people, raise anyone you can) and the risk (in the form of xp loss) is non-existent, but one of the major objections to that sort of system is what happens to the leechers? They're still reaping rewards, but they're not doing any actual "work," as it were: they're not fighting, they're not curing, they're not raising, they're not buffing anyone but themselves. The computer reports that /brds are doing some sort of work, but people have actual brains in their head and can see that they're not. In this society (perhaps all over the world), people tend not to like other people who obtain rewards for minimal effort, especially when they've just spent the past hour frantically trying to keep their avatars up and running. It's not real 'work,' per se, but the effort is being made to follow the spirit of what campaign battle was intended for.

It's not a matter of 'stupid lowbies' getting into a high-level event, either - a level 25 WHM can run around with tags doing nothing but resting, curing, and raising people, and people won't mind because they're actually making a contribution (however small) to campaign battles. A song-spammer, OTOH, contributes nothing and still walks away with something.

A workable analogy would be like going to a workplace where you can't possibly get fired, then doing nothing but playing poker online all day, and getting a slightly smaller paycheck than everyone else on payday. If you're a professional gambler, then you're fine, but if you're not, then you're just leeching off the system. People tend not to care how you're 'technically' following the rules, because most people are concerned with the spirit the rules, and if you're disregarding that, then they probably won't like what you're doing very much.

And as Maxx has already said, /BRD gives you no practical experience (as far as 'practical experience' can go in a game) because not only is /BRD not considered to be a normal SJ, but by song-spamming, you're not performing any of the duties that your job requires: you're not tanking as a PLD/NIN/WAR, you're not fighting as a MNK/DRK/DRG/SAM...etc, you're not casting spells as a WHM/BLM/RDM, and you're not doing...whatever it is that BSTs are supposed to do when they're not soloing. You're just sitting there spamming songs on yourself (which is not practical for any job, even BRD), and while your character might be gaining experience, you the player are learning nothing about the job itself.

[The Blackrose]

Those are the flimsy objections which are being disputed.

This coming from the person trying to justify that /BRD should still exist so he could ride the gravy train with little to nil rationale behind the argument. Godwin yourself please, you're done.

[Flarega]

DEF/VIT calculation is far more broken than Campaign. Utsusemi "fixes" this problem. Equally logically retarded, yet riots have failed to ensue.

If it solves a problem, and it doesn't hurt anyone (in any significant manner), why not go with it? This is precisely what has kept Squenix from dropping a safe on NIN.

Ok, I really hate it when people just name off logical fallacies in their posts but come on, straw motherfucking man.

[neophoenix]

First of all the xp you get from /brd could never match a good xp pt, it's capped at 5400 per hour after lvl 61, and lots of ppl do put their invite flag on while doing campaign battle, those are the jobs hardly get an invite...

Secondly, I still wonder whom do /brd ppl exploit? the normal players? It's not like they can't /brd, as I mentioned before it's a choice for everyone. in one campaign battle, normally 2 75s could duo one, some could even solo, today I just see one pld 2 rdms take the whole train about 6 or 7 yagudos and take on them one by one...under normal occassion everybody should get full xp off a single battle, the reason why we don't is there are too many players and not that many targets and I can say for sure, even if /brd is stopped, we will still come for battle for a very simple reason, there is no other way to get xp, if you have limited time online, and you can't get an invite, what would you do to get some xp?

Finally xp pt is always irreplaceable for many reasons, but ask yourself, when you start to repeat the same action on the same mobs over and over again for hours, isn't that like /brd in some way? There is a turning point, and it's definitely somewhere in the middle of that 40kish xp bar.

I can say campaign battle is designed for light players from the beginning, they might be able to play like 1 or 2 hours per day, can't expect them to wait for or make a pt, campaign battle is their best choice.

[Flarega]

First of all the xp you get from /brd could never match a good xp pt, it's capped at 5400 per hour after lvl 61, and lots of ppl do put their invite flag on while doing campaign battle, those are the jobs hardly get an invite...

Secondly, I still wonder whom do /brd ppl exploit? the normal players? It's not like they can't /brd, as I mentioned before it's a choice for everyone. in one campaign battle, normally 2 75s could duo one, some could even solo, today I just see one pld 2 rdms take the whole train about 6 or 7 yagudos and take on them one by one...under normal occassion everybody should get full xp off a single battle, the reason why we don't is there are too many players and not that many targets and I can say for sure, even if /brd is stopped, we will still come for battle for a very simple reason, there is no other way to get xp, if you have limited time online, and you can't get an invite, what would you do to get some xp?

Finally xp pt is always irreplaceable for many reasons, but ask yourself, when you start to repeat the same action on the same mobs over and over again for hours, isn't that like /brd in some way? There is a turning point, and it's definitely somewhere in the middle of that 40kish xp bar.

I can say campaign battle is designed for light players from the beginning, they might be able to play like 1 or 2 hours per day, can't expect them to wait for or make a pt, campaign battle is their best choice.

Gonna make an AV comparison here, don't kill me.

So by this logic, the wall of justice exploit was fine because you're not affecting anyone? You're exploiting the game, but not causing any detriment to other players.

Just because what you're doing doesn't directly affect anyone doesn't mean its not an exploit that needs fixing.

[neophoenix]

hmmm I think this is more like playing game in a different way, not as much as exploiting, if I want to play job I go for battle, if I purely want to get xp I go /brd, to understand how the system work is also part of the fun, like ppl doing enmity test, gardening report, all these stuff. You know how much SE want to hide everything, digging them out is another way of playing. Challenges are all fun^^