Israel Israel Israelst, they are not a dire threat to vital U.S. interests, except inasmuch as they

[fstfrk13]

Isreal is the greatest terrorist organization in the world. we just think of them as "good" because they are our allies. They have the greatest "anti-terrorist" forces in the world because they themselves are the greatest terrorists.

[Elvis]

I'm no fan of Israeli politics but consider that the US is also very friendly with the Saudis. I'd say it goes beyond religion for our leaders - but as for voters, you could make that argument.

And yea, Israel wouldn't be able to handle their problems without US support.

[Correction]

So we stop giving money to Israel and then Arab nations stop hating us?

Is that your answer?

[Elvis]

Oh lawdy.

[Norelco]

From wikipedia on US-Israeli relations:

Additionally the U.S. military maintains two classified, pre-positioned War Reserve Stocks in Israel valued at $493 million.[5] Israel has the official distinction of being an American Major non-NATO ally. As a result of this, The US and Israel share the vast majority of their security and military technology.
Since 1976, Israel had been the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance. In 2004, Israel was receiving $2.16 billion a year in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) grants from the Department of Defense.[6] This amount has increased in recent years due to non-military economic aid being shifted to military aid.[7] A large proportion of this military aid is for the purchase of American military equipment only.

I work in defense contractor business. US Airforce uses ALOT of Israeli technology on our planes. Some of their stuff is lightyears ahead of stuff we could come up with. It's no surprise to me we're throwing money at them.

[Xno Kappa]

I think Israel has a doomsday device and we're the only ones that know about it. That's why politicians lick the countries sack.

[Lee]

What?

Israel is one of the most volatile, hate inciting countries in the middle east. They have no qualms of resorting to the same "terrorism" their so called foes use, and only have military/technological power due to US aid.

Someone has been watching too much Al-Jazeera. Show me some proof that Israel incites hate against any race/religion. If you think that they've been inciting hate against Arabs/Muslims, did you know that there are at least 500,000 Arabs who currently reside in Israel with citizenship? I don't know where you're getting your facts from, maybe it's from that one-time story of the license plates that identify whether you lived in an Arab zone or a Jewish zone, and yet I still don't believe people consider that racist because of the situation that could occur if they are too careless with security. Many Arabs and Jews are friendly to each other in Israel to the contrary.

In the countries surrounding Israel, you can actually see the 'incitement of hate' in real footage provided by your local Mosque.

Israel has never resorted to the same terrorism their foes use, this is especially evident if you've been keeping up with the news on this subject. It's obvious that you're referring to the many Arabs that are PoW in jails in Israel and used as chips in occasional prisoner swaps. While Israel gave back a child-murderer Samir Kuntar (who was actually honored by the Arab World) and other Lebanese Prisoners alive, they got dead bodies in black boxes in return. I also don't see Israel specifically targeting civilians either... you may think differently, but many of Israel's foes hide within civilian infrastructure using civilians as meat shields and negative political spotlight on Israel.

Although I can't deny your last comment due to US Aid to Israel, I could say that Israel has developed many technological breakthroughs that aid other countries around the world today including the USA.

[archibaldcrane]

I wonder what kind of technological breakthroughs could be developed in America with 3 BILLION dollars a year pumped into it.

[Kang]

I have nothing against Israel or the PLO. But being a spectator who has watched the actions of both sides, both have done some pretty horrible things. But it seems more people take Israel's side than the PLO. Just an impartial observation.

[Lee]

I wonder what kind of technological breakthroughs could be developed in America with 3 BILLION dollars a year pumped into it.

Are you blind? I said earlier that most of it is NOT currency, it's expensive military equipment such as F-16s and the like.

[Elvis]

Someone has been watching too much Al-Jazeera. Show me some proof that Israel incites hate against any race/religion. If you think that they've been inciting hate against Arabs/Muslims, did you know that there are at least 500,000 Arabs who currently reside in Israel with citizenship? I don't know where you're getting your facts from, maybe it's from that one-time story of the license plates that identify whether you lived in an Arab zone or a Jewish zone, and yet I still don't believe people consider that racist because of the situation that could occur if they are too careless with security. Many Arabs and Jews are friendly to each other in Israel to the contrary.

In the countries surrounding Israel, you can actually see the 'incitement of hate' in real footage provided by your local Mosque.

Israel has never resorted to the same terrorism their foes use, this is especially evident if you've been keeping up with the news on this subject. It's obvious that you're referring to the many Arabs that are PoW in jails in Israel and used as chips in occasional prisoner swaps. While Israel gave back a child-murderer Samir Kuntar (who was actually honored by the Arab World) and other Lebanese Prisoners alive, they got dead bodies in black boxes in return. I also don't see Israel specifically targeting civilians either... you may think differently, but many of Israel's foes hide within civilian infrastructure using civilians as meat shields and negative political spotlight on Israel.

Although I can't deny your last comment due to US Aid to Israel, I could say that Israel has developed many technological breakthroughs that aid other countries around the world today including the USA.

So much bullshit in your post.

First of all, any country is a collective. We always generalize in political discussions like when people refer to groups just by their country.

Like, America is blah blah blah around the world. I don't think people mean it literally, that every single American did _____ or is responsible for _______.

You really think Israel doesn't incite any hatred amongst the Palestinians/Muslims/Arabs? Oh and if this sentiment exists, it's only reported on Al Jazeera?

There's plenty of news articles that don't represent the IDF and Israel in a good light. How are we supposed to proceed further if we assume that any negative criticism is propaganda? There are people on both sides who swear their side is fighting the good fight.

You wanted "proof" (whatever the fuck that means as if these people inherently hate each other - no, it's instilled into them later on) though.. so here's just one example.

Specifically Israeli settlers and the guards in the settlements and how they interact with the Palestinians:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH0o_...eature=related

This clip isn't doctored and isn't injected with an editorial. Here is the source:
http://btselem.org/English/index.asp

This clip was not created by the YouTube poster. His comments in the right side panel are his alone, as is the title he's placed on the video. I could have found this clip or anyone else and named it in a more neutral manner.

Also, let me add that I'm not presupposing that any one instance of hatred on either side represents the whole of either group. This is just in response to your request for some sort of "proof" (again, a vague statement that implies that we can empirically study the feelings of people,ie quantify it and as a result ignore the complexity of the situation).

Yes, Israelis cause hatred. So do Americans, so do Palestinians. Everyone can and does to some degree.

EDIT:

Some more videos. Some with editorial commentary and some w/o:

Clip from the award-winning documentary, Occupation 101(Editorial commentary but with on-the-ground coverage and first-hand interviews):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB_-B...eature=related

CNN exchange:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB_-B...eature=related

CBC news report(Editorial commentary but with on-the-ground coverage and first-hand interviews):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_...eature=related

News report (Editorial commentary but with on-the-ground coverage and first-hand interviews):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIZAO...eature=related

[Norelco]

Are you blind? I said earlier that most of it is NOT currency, it's expensive military equipment such as F-16s and the like.

Yeah, F-16s are Israel's primary fighter jets.

[Lee]

So much bullshit in your post.

First of all, any country is a collective. We always generalize in political discussions like when people refer to groups just by their country.

Like, America is blah blah blah around the world. I don't think people mean it literally, that every single American did _____ or is responsible for _______.

You really think Israel doesn't incite any hatred amongst the Palestinians/Muslims/Arabs? Oh and if this sentiment exists, it's only reported on Al Jazeera?

There's plenty of news articles that don't represent the IDF and Israel in a good light. How are we supposed to proceed further if we assume that any negative criticism is propaganda? There are people on both sides who swear their side is fighting the good fight.

You wanted "proof" (whatever the fuck that means as if these people inherently hate each other - no, it's instilled into them later on) though.. so here's just one example. Specifically Israeli settlers and the guards in the settlements and how they interact with the Palestinians:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH0o_...eature=related

This clip isn't doctored and isn't injected with an editorial. Here is the source: http://btselem.org/English/index.asp

This clip was not created by the YouTube poster. His comments in the right side panel are his alone, as is the title he's placed on the video. I could have found this clip or anyone else and named it in a more neutral manner.

Also, let me add that I'm not presupposing that any one instance of hatred on either side represents the whole of either group. This is just in response to your request for some sort of "proof" (again, a vague statement that implies that we can empirically study the feelings of people,ie quantify it). Yes, Israelis cause hatred. So do Americans, so do Palestinians. Everyone can and does to some degree.

EDIT:

Some more videos. Some with editorial commentary and some w/o:

Documentary clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB_-B...eature=related

CNN exchange:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB_-B...eature=related

News report (Editorial commentary but with on-the-ground coverage):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related

Your first clip does show hatred between the Israeli Settlers and the Arabs that live close by, but this wasn't the point I was trying to make. Churchill said that Israel was one of the most hate inciting countries in the area and that is simply not true. The Israeli government in no way encourages the retarded behavior of the Israeli Settlers (who are a minority in Israel).

The rest of the videos you posted are just negative spotlight upon Israel and don't showcase any hate involved, you're just posting to make it seem like Israel are the villians. I could post 1000+ videos of terrorists in Palestine firing rockets and holding mutilated remains of Israeli Soldiers while parading on the street. The CBC report video does show Israeli Army blunders, but mistakes DO happen in War if you didn't know, and quite often.

The News Report you posted (last vid) is Bias in the fact that in the video you hear all the tragic occurrences in Gaza but they don't report on the lives lost and the homes destroyed in Israel due to the rockets that come from Gaza.

The CNN exchange I admit was tragic and shows you why the tactics of Israel's foes are so effective (hiding within lots of civilians) but the reporter's rebuttal was just stupid, "you can shoot those rockets out of the sky... right?" Are you kidding me?...

ed: Anyway, not trying to switch subjects here, but I don't want to argue with a guy like you, considering I've seen your past thread (Hiroshima) and your complete refusal to recognize when you've lost that debate.

ed2: I apologize for linking Dispatches with Al-Jazeera, I was almost positive I watched a similar news program on it.

[Elvis]

Your first clip does show hatred between the Israeli Settlers and the Arabs that live close by, but this wasn't the point I was trying to make. Churchill said that Israel was one of the most hate inciting countries in the area and that is simply not true. The Israeli government in no way encourages the retarded behavior of the Israeli Settlers (who are a minority in Israel).

The rest of the videos you posted are just negative spotlight upon Israel and don't showcase any hate involved, you're just posting to make it seem like Israel are the villians. I could post 1000+ videos of terrorists in Palestine firing rockets and holding mutilated remains of Israeli Soldiers while parading on the street. The CBC report video does show Israeli Army blunders, but mistakes DO happen in War if you didn't know, and quite often.

The News Report you posted (last vid) is VERY Bias in the fact that 'DISPATCHES' comes from Al-Jazeera, which I stated before is one-sided and this video proves that fact (thanks). In the video you hear all the tragic occurrences in Gaza but they don't report on the lives lost and the homes destroyed in Israel due to the rockets that come from Gaza.

The CNN exchange I admit was tragic and shows you why the tactics of Israel's foes are so effective (hiding within lots of civilians) but the reporter's rebuttal was just stupid, "you can shoot those rockets out of the sky... right?" Are you kidding me?...

Anyway, not trying to switch subjects here, but I don't want to argue with a guy like you, considering I've seen your past threads (Hiroshima) and your complete refusal to recognize when you've lost that debate.

Lost?

The main point made in the Hiroshima debate against me was my original post (the blogger). I conceded that it was similar to asking a loaded question.

However, it had nothing to do with my stance on the bombing (which no one debated me on). In fact, I referenced the same sources (one which was questioned but the debate is done there so I won't pursue it for the moment) as other posters who weren't questioned at all. Probably has to do with the fact that I'm new to the forums and the blogger I referenced was very naive.

It was a mistake to cite the blogger but meh, the debate took off. It got sidetracked because of my exchange with Creeps/Corrections.

I didn't "lose." It's not really a game here. The debate is organic and it's a back and forth. I don't think you need to have an answer per se. Just keep the dialogue going and maybe you learn something after it's ended on it's own volition.

That being said, my point has been made. You made a sweeping generalization. I am not implying that one side is right or wrong here. I just posted those videos to back up my point that Israel does not always get favorably coverage.

Furthermore, those videos show on the ground footage, interviews with people living in the ghettos and political editorial and analysis.

You just dismissed it as some sort of counterbalance: "negative spotlight." More soft language. I don't think Israeli forces firing missiles into a crowded street full of civilians to get an enemy target is "negative spotlight." Negative spotlight is Lindsay Lohan's cooter showing when she gets into her Escalade after a night of partying to go home.

Those videos I posted certainly don't flatter Israel's part in the conflict but it's not a smear piece.

It's legitimate reporting. The editorial is what it is, and you can ignore that if you want, but you can't ignore the words of the civilians on the ground and the raw footage.

[Elvis]

The News Report you posted (last vid) is Bias in the fact that in the video you hear all the tragic occurrences in Gaza but they don't report on the lives lost and the homes destroyed in Israel due to the rockets that come from Gaza.

Actually, I believe in one of the videos some statistic is brought up. That for every 1 Israeli, 4 or 5 Palestinians die? Civilians that is. Again, I could be wrong. You're mostly right in this respect but my intention was purely to show coverage the runs contrary to your point.

The givens (IMO) are that not all Israelis are like those settlers. In the same way, not all Palestinians are terrorists and blah blah blah.

Weren't you the one who, after rebuking Churchill, stated that if we wanted to see real incitement of hatred we should look to a Mosque?

How is that any better from his generalization?

Let's all agree that we tend to editorialize from time to time. It's only human. I would focus on the possible objectivity in these reports. I don't think Israel (the entity) is evil. Just like how America (the entity) is not evil. It's just semantics.

[fantasticdan]

Are you blind? I said earlier that most of it is NOT currency, it's expensive military equipment such as F-16s and the like.

So what? "Expensive military equipment" obviously costs money and resources, which could be sold or used for something else.

[Elvis]

Added part 2 of the video about Rachel Corrie video. It's posted by a user who is probably an anti-semite (his comments are full of sites like jewwatch.com). His views do not reflect the content of the video. The video was done by a professional journalist and it speaks for itself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIZAO...eature=related

It's interjected with lots of editorial, so take it with a grain of salt. I was interested in the on-ground footage mostly.

[Ace-o-fire]

Mossad is the blue box version of the CIA they get away with so much shit.

[Vail]

I didn't "lose." It's not really a game here. The debate is organic and it's a back and forth. I don't think you need to have an answer per se. Just keep the dialogue going and maybe you learn something after it's ended on it's own volition.

anyone who knows anything about debate knows that their is always a winner and a loser to a debate, the winner is who gets the most people to agree with them: which in that past thread you most defiantly failed to do.

I didn't "lose."

famous last words of someone who lost ? You be the judge

[Elvis]

anyone who knows anything about debate knows that their is always a winner and a loser to a debate, the winner is who gets the most people to agree with them: which in that past thread you most defiantly failed to do.


famous last words of someone who lost ? You be the judge

And what happens when you "win"? Do your opinions manifest?

Like, if I'm proven wrong, the opposing opinion materializes?

No.

There is no winner because the debate is on-going (organic). Just because a thread in BG ends up a certain way, doesn't mean the consensus (if there is one) represents the opinion outside of BG. I mean if we're being practical, all it means is that those who posted disagreed and even then, I'd be interested in their opposing arguments rather than a simple condemnation. That thread is probably around still and the bulk of the debate is Correction and me going at it but with no respect to my opinion on the matter. Again, I was associated with the blogger and that's my own fault.

The point made against me in the Hiroshima thread wasn't in relation to my opinion on the bombing.

The point made, was how I introduced the debate. How the blogger was naive and didn't have an argument. Furthermore I was associated with the blogger and hence, whatever I said was characterized as "naive."

EDIT:

The one specific discretion was that to do w/ a source I referenced (the Zinn article). It's an editorial piece. I referenced it to prove a point. I also referenced other articles that contained quotes from military personell(sp) - and had sources. Those weren't questioned.

Ok Kuya. I'm done w/ my ranting on Hiroshima.^^;