Penta Thrust

[Stabmegently]

I've searched for a topic on this and I haven't found exactly what I'm looking for. If it already exists, please forgive me. This may be a noobish question, but prior to this, I haven't really been using polearm much. I just recently got my Samurai to 75 and along with it, I aquired a Tomoe. I'm very enthusiastic about using it, however, my Penta Thrusts aren't so great. My polearm skill is 232/240, but aside from that, I'd say I have decent gear. I'm aware of the 20% STR and DEX mod, so with that being said, can anyone give me advice on what to actually gear for, in order to get to an optimal WS output?

I"m currently using the same gear I use for GKT WS, simply because at the moment, it's all I have. This includes:

Tomoe/Polegrip/<blank>/Smartgrenade
OpticalHat/Chivchain/Fowlingearring/BrutalEarring
Haubergeon/Alkybracelets/Flamering/RajasRing
SmilodonMantle+1/Warwolfbelt/B.Haidate/FourthSchuhs


Now, I know the alky bracelets are probably killing me, so I even tried just using dusk (For experimentation purposes only) to see if the -DEX really effected me that much, but honestly, I didn't find the #s to be much different. I believe this leaves me with somewhere around 53 STR and 24 DEX (With Hasso). I could put my wyvern helm on instead of O-hat, but I think I need the acc more than the STR. Also, I guess I should note, my target is Greater Colibri. What am I doing wrong?

[Amele]

accuracy

all the accuracy you can wedge in. use str in slots you can't get accuracy. ignore dex (except for the value it gives you for accuracy).

your accuracy with a polearm sucks (it really does, I promise) and accuracy is the most important part of multihit skills. for hands I'd get something with acc+10 on it (nkotes, etc)

[Callisto]

Nitpicky but you might want to also dump that Smilo+1 for a Forager's/Amemet+1.

[Xanthe]

accuracy

all the accuracy you can wedge in. use str in slots you can't get accuracy. ignore dex (except for the value it gives you for accuracy).

your accuracy with a polearm sucks (it really does, I promise) and accuracy is the most important part of multihit skills. for hands I'd get something with acc+10 on it (nkotes, etc)

This.

[Stabmegently]

I'll give it a try. Worst case, anything I decide I don't want, I can sell back. The only thing that bums me out is that I partied with a SAM last night who wasn't using a ton of accuracy gear, and was doing far better than I was. Now, perhaps he had polearm merits, capped skill and something else up his sleeve, but I can't say. He was japanese and so I didn't ask. If anyone else has anything to add, I'm taking all the help I can get. Thanks again.


Edit: I Do have Amemet +1, but I use it for TP. I only used Smilodon+1 for GKT WS. Are you saying I should use Amemet for both GKT and Polearm, or only polearm?

[Stromgarde]

Penta is like Asuran, as much acc and atk as you can manage, str and dex where you can't fit either of those two. And stop using Alky's, you're embarassing yourself.

[Callisto]

Edit: I Do have Amemet +1, but I use it for TP. I only used Smilodon+1 for GKT WS. Are you saying I should use Amemet for both GKT and Polearm, or only polearm?

Unless you also have RNG or COR I'd definitely consider unloading both and getting a Forager's. But yes I'd take Amemet+1 over Smilo+1 either way.

[Stabmegently]

Yeah, I do have RNG and COR both 75, so I'll stick with the amemet+1. As for Alky's, are you saying don't use them at all, or only for penta thrust? Because my original post was about penta thrust, please be more specific.... and if I don't use them, use what? O.kotes? I don't have AF+1 hands at the moment. Only reason I stack on so much STR is because of the modifier and again, I haven't been playing SAM very long.

[Amele]

Yeah, I do have RNG and COR both 75, so I'll stick with the amemet+1. As for Alky's, are you saying don't use them at all, or only for penta thrust? Because my original post was about penta thrust, please be more specific.... and if I don't use them, use what? O.kotes? I don't have AF+1 hands at the moment. Only reason I stack on so much STR is because of the modifier and again, I haven't been playing SAM very long.

Alky's are for SAM/THF really; there's better options for every other combo.

and you're really overestimating the value of the str mod.

[Stabmegently]

Alky's are for SAM/THF really; there's better options for every other combo.

and you're really overestimating the value of the str mod.

Ok, sorry for asking so many questions, but like I said, I really wanna do this right.

What do you suggest I use for hands? O.kotes in place of Alky's? and.. should I even worry about getting AF+1 hands?

Without spending much gil, I've adjusted my WS gear so far to include Amir boots for feet, and leaving on my Ulthalam's ring for the acc. No N.kotes on sale atm, and I'm assuming I could use potent belt at the waist. Altogether that would give me 29 more accuracy than what I currently have. Sound good?

[Rhealana]

Accuracy to a certain point.

If say you're meriting on Colibri, which I assume you are since you're using a polearm versus a GKT, and you're already hitting over 90% accuracy while TPing, adding more accuracy during your WS will not help you land more hits.

Don't use Alky's for Penta. -DEX decreases your mods and accuracy. Something like O.Kotes would be a decent basic AH-able piece to wear for Penta.

Even with 95% accuracy, you're looking at somewhere around landing all 5 of your Penta hits only around 70% of the time or so. There's no way to increase this except for perhaps Double Attack.

[Callisto]

The modifiers don't do much at all, especially on Penta(20% of your STR and then .83 of that comes out to about jack shit). Find some Accuracy in the hands for Penta if you can, or at least something without the -DEX. Even Hydra Finger Gauntlets wouldn't be terrible, or Fourth Gauntlets. As far as GKT, Alky's still aren't favorable IMO, it's not worth the Acc loss, O.Kotes would probably be a reasonable hold over until Myochin+1.

[Tubbers]

Alky's are for SAM/THF really; there's better options for every other combo.

11 STR is a pretty large boost for Yuki/Gekko/Kasha, what do you suggest instead? AF+1?

[Callisto]

AF+1 hands are extremely nice, and a 4 STR loss is worth a 13 DEX swing.

[Tordall]

Multi-hit weaponskill optimization has a fairly straightforward procedure:

1) Add +acc until your TP return stabilizes.
2) Then add +atk until it gets expensive
3) Add 2ndary modifiers if you get a big chunk of them in one piece of gear (why heca is so godly on jobs that can use it).

As for Alkies, I know they're a big no-no on blade:jin for ninja (another multi-hit w/ str & dex mods), as they're not better than okotes (fairly convincingly). So I'ld suggest sticking with Okotes for penta on sam.

[FailureMidgard]

I've searched for a topic on this and I haven't found exactly what I'm looking for. If it already exists, please forgive me. This may be a noobish question, but prior to this, I haven't really been using polearm much. I just recently got my Samurai to 75 and along with it, I aquired a Tomoe. I'm very enthusiastic about using it, however, my Penta Thrusts aren't so great. My polearm skill is 232/240, but aside from that, I'd say I have decent gear. I'm aware of the 20% STR and DEX mod, so with that being said, can anyone give me advice on what to actually gear for, in order to get to an optimal WS output?

I"m currently using the same gear I use for GKT WS, simply because at the moment, it's all I have. This includes:

Tomoe/Polegrip/<blank>/Smartgrenade
OpticalHat/Chivchain/Fowlingearring/BrutalEarring
Haubergeon/Alkybracelets/Flamering/RajasRing
SmilodonMantle+1/Warwolfbelt/B.Haidate/FourthSchuhs


Now, I know the alky bracelets are probably killing me, so I even tried just using dusk (For experimentation purposes only) to see if the -DEX really effected me that much, but honestly, I didn't find the #s to be much different. I believe this leaves me with somewhere around 53 STR and 24 DEX (With Hasso). I could put my wyvern helm on instead of O-hat, but I think I need the acc more than the STR. Also, I guess I should note, my target is Greater Colibri. What am I doing wrong?

I consider all of these not that hard to get, so here's what I'd go for:
Shadow Gorget (sea)...lots of acc and some extra dmg on the first hit to boot
Tiphia...obvious
Amir Boots...MMJ pts assault, best Penta boots short of Usu really.
Standard Acc ring in place of Flame.
Anything else in hand...Okote, Nkote, AF+1 Hand

Finally...even on birds you will never ever ever cap accuracy on your own. If your party isn't getting a Madrigal, it's hardly even worth the effort to use polearm. I value mods a little higher than others due to this...with a Madrigal, you can expect your acc to be high enough to start going for mods in place of accuracy everywhere.

Past that, dex is good. I disagree with Amele here. looking at 20dex vs 20str:

20str = 9 weapon damage.
20dex = 4 weapon damage and 15 accuracy
1 weapon dmg ~=2.2 str

With those #s, if 1 accuracy is better than 1 str, then 15 accuracy is better than 11 str (5*2.2) for sure. 1 dex > 1 str for penta.

In general, I think dex>acc>str is the order to go on those 3 stats.

[Stabmegently]

AF+1 hands are extremely nice, and a 4 STR loss is worth a 13 DEX swing.

I have the scarlet odashi at the moment, so I'll work hard to get the other half. Thanks for the info guys, I'm tossing my alky's on sale as I post this. I guess I"ll use o.kotes until I finish Myochin kote+1.

My total acc from gear for Penta is 61. Also, once I cap my skill, I'll get a tiny boost from that. I'm still managing STR+34 and DEX+30 for Penta. I think from what you guys are telling me, it sounds much more balanced. I'll try this out and see what I get. Thanks for all of your input and I appreciate your patience with me. Take care ^^

[Amele]

Accuracy to a certain point.

If say you're meriting on Colibri, which I assume you are since you're using a polearm versus a GKT, and you're already hitting over 90% accuracy while TPing, adding more accuracy during your WS will not help you land more hits.

Don't use Alky's for Penta. -DEX decreases your mods and accuracy. Something like O.Kotes would be a decent basic AH-able piece to wear for Penta.

Even with 95% accuracy, you're looking at somewhere around landing all 5 of your Penta hits only around 70% of the time or so. There's no way to increase this except for perhaps Double Attack.

likelihood of hitting all 5 hits at 90% acc = ~59%
likelihood of hitting all 5 hits at 92% acc = ~65%
likelihood of hitting all 5 hits at 95% acc = ~77%~

basically, not missing that fifth hit is worth more overall damage than any strength dex or attack you'd get instead. period.

[Tubbers]

I consider all of these not that hard to get, so here's what I'd go for:
Shadow Gorget (sea)...lots of acc and some extra dmg on the first hit to boot
Tiphia...obvious
Amir Boots...MMJ pts assault, best Penta boots short of Usu really.
Standard Acc ring in place of Flame.
Anything else in hand...Okote, Nkote, AF+1 Hand

Finally...even on birds you will never ever ever cap accuracy on your own. If your party isn't getting a Madrigal, it's hardly even worth the effort to use polearm. I value mods a little higher than others due to this...with a Madrigal, you can expect your acc to be high enough to start going for mods in place of accuracy everywhere.

Past that, dex is good. I disagree with Amele here. looking at 20dex vs 20str:

20str = 9 weapon damage.
20dex = 4 weapon damage and 15 accuracy
1 weapon dmg ~=2.2 str

With those #s, if 1 accuracy is better than 1 str, then 15 accuracy is better than 11 str (5*2.2) for sure. 1 dex > 1 str for penta.

In general, I think dex>acc>str is the order to go on those 3 stats.

You forgot the .83 multiplier for mods, It's 1 weapon dmg ~=2.4 str, ~=6 dex
20str = 8.333 D
20dex = 3.32 D, 15 acc

There's basically no difference in the differences between them, still 5D and 15acc, but yeah, it's 15 acc vs 12 STR (5*2.4). Until you hit the 95% acc cap, 1 dex will outperform 1 str, assuming that 1 accuracy outperforms 1 str.

[FailureMidgard]

likelihood of hitting all 5 hits at 90% acc = ~59%
likelihood of hitting all 5 hits at 92% acc = ~65%
likelihood of hitting all 5 hits at 95% acc = ~77%~

basically, not missing that fifth hit is worth more overall damage than any strength dex or attack you'd get instead. period.

With Madrigal and /drg I parse at ~88-90% in normal haste gear, I add more than 10 accuracy on my WS already without having to sacrifice more for mods. Unless Penta has a negative modifier, I will agree with my earlier statement. That being said, I also have 4 Polearm merits.

Currently I gain: 5 acc on neck (gorget), 8 acc on head (Turban>Hissho), 6 acc on boots (Fuma>Amir...wish my 25 for usu boots would drop!), 5 acc on belt (Swift>Potent...I'm thinking about changing this to warwolf), 3 on ear (wyvern>fowling). So I'm currently gaining 27 accuracy on my WS gear over my 88-90% accuracy, I think I can safely say my Pentas are at cap accuracy. Granted I have ~17-18 accuracy from /drg and merits, but even so I would still be just about capped on Pentas (just worst acc while TPing) without either. I also don't have a Byakko's and WS in Usu Legs, so that right there makes up nearly half of the bonus accuracy I have (and the dex mod is good too).

Also, I made an error earlier on gear. Lightning Bow +1 > Tiphia for Polearm.

You forgot the .83 multiplier for mods, It's 1 weapon dmg ~=2.4 str, ~=6 dex
20str = 8.333 D
20dex = 3.32 D, 15 acc

There's basically no difference in the differences between them, still 5D and 15acc, but yeah, it's 15 acc vs 12 STR (5*2.4). Until you hit the 95% acc cap, 1 dex will outperform 1 str, assuming that 1 accuracy outperforms 1 str.

Oops, my bad on the .83, but yea, if a Snipers is better than a Flame ring, then 1 dex outperforms 1 str up until the acc cap...which is semi-hard to hit for a sam, and things like Warwolf and AF+1 hands give both str and dex in decent amounts, and using those in place of accuracy pieces will keep you right around the acc cap for penta, while giving the mods at the same time. That being said, I'm using Okote atm because my acc on Penta with Madrigal is fine, and I feel my attack is a bit lacking.