Regarding Specific Notorious Monsters (AV + PW + JOL)

[Zoot]

I'm sorry but wait a minute and hold up, who ever said that we thought we fought it the RIGHT way? I mean seriously, go ahead and try and piss in our wheaties but no one claimed that we had it down solid and that this was actually supposed to be fought the way we did as far as I know.

What we were mad about, and what was obvious, was that whatever the trick was that was meant to make the fight shorter was just as oblivious as AV's trick. I mean honestly, do you think you're supposed to kill AV through manafont? The people who have fought it know for sure that that is impossible, and yet we had so many people on here telling us that the way to fight it was to trick Meteor out.

I mean seriously, no matter what end of the spectrum you're on you will always have someone pretending they are the shit because they disagree with you. No, we never claimed it was the right way to fight it. What we said was that it was bullshit and if there was a trick, it was obscure and damn straight it and AV deserved to be redesigned or at LEAST they should throw us a fucking bone, because finding out the secret itself can and very well has taken over 18 hours.

[Kang]

About fucking time is all I can say.

P.S. JoL doesn't need a nerf.

[Seraph]

I'm sorry but wait a minute and hold up, who ever said that we thought we fought it the RIGHT way? I mean seriously, go ahead and try and piss in our wheaties but no one claimed that we had it down solid and that this was actually supposed to be fought the way we did as far as I know.

What we were mad about, and what was obvious, was that whatever the trick was that was meant to make the fight shorter was just as oblivious as AV's trick. I mean honestly, do you think you're supposed to kill AV through manafont? The people who have fought it know for sure that that is impossible, and yet we had so many people on here telling us that the way to fight it was to trick Meteor out.

I mean seriously, no matter what end of the spectrum you're on you will always have someone pretending they are the shit because they disagree with you. No, we never claimed it was the right way to fight it. What we said was that it was bullshit and if there was a trick, it was obscure and damn straight it and AV deserved to be redesigned or at LEAST they should throw us a fucking bone, because finding out the secret itself can and very well has taken over 18 hours.

What kills me, is people are all of a sudden believing there is a "trick". I just think these mobs suck and SE is blowing smoke up our asses. SE uses poor wording constantly, and this update note proves nothing except SE doesn't understand the English or Japanese playerbase.

If there are tricks, I've never seen any of them work except killing the JoL pets and the 'same day' nuking. If that is the ace-in-the-hole tricks SE is refering to, that's pretty disappointing. Oh boy, less regen. I have seen the light! OH LORDY!

:-/


Edit: The difficulty of the monster Pandemonium Warden has been adjusted. The number of monsters it can summon has been decreased from eight to seven.

Calling it now.

[miokomioko]

About fucking time is all I can say.

P.S. JoL doesn't need a nerf.

I think it could use one for two reasons:

1) Doing more than 1 pop usually results in moans/groans from anyone who isn't a BLM or from those who already have Novio.

2) The expected duration of time to defeat Absolute Virtue has to take into consideration the time to defeat Jailer of Love since it pops directly from it. It would be one thing if Absolute Virtue had his own pop... (which it should! as a ~50% drop from Jailer of Love, hint hint)

[Tyrath]

2) The expected duration of time to defeat Absolute Virtue has to take into consideration the time to defeat Jailer of Love since it pops directly from it. It would be one thing if Absolute Virtue had his own pop... (which it should! as a ~50% drop from Jailer of Love, hint hint)

It'd be really epic if the change to JOL is that it now drops a pop to AV...











I can dream can't I?!

[AnonRamuh]

They're doing something. Let's see what they do.

Maxx, I don't agree with most of your posts but this is dead on correct.

I have enough hope and faith left in SE to believe that it will be a positive change. It's just unfortunate that the situation has become so big that the usual scrutinizing of SE's wording has now been taken to a whole new level (and yes I'm guilty of this anal retentive nature too).

However I still believe that this post by SE (as with all their posts) was not written by the dev team it was written by PR people who's job it is to make their company look good. To an outsider it would accomplish it's goal. But to the FFXI: Advanced Player Discussion crowd it highlights more silliness.

[LD]

A dream is a wish your heart makes.

[Zoot]

What kills me, is people are all of a sudden believing there is a "trick". I just think these mobs suck and SE is blowing smoke up our asses. SE uses poor wording constantly, and this update note proves nothing except SE doesn't understand the English or Japanese playerbase.

If there are tricks, I've never seen any of them work except killing the JoL pets and the 'same day' nuking. If that is the ace-in-the-hole tricks SE is refering to, that's pretty disappointing. Oh boy, less regen. I have seen the light! OH LORDY!

:-/

Honestly, I don't know and I can't say. In all of my posts what I had said was, I hope to god there is an easier way to fight this because it's bullshit. Unfortunately if there is a way then we're going to somehow obtain FFXI enlightenment to see it because it wasn't implemented in a way that works with the players to allow them to uncover the secret, should there be one.

What they did say was that they "never intended for it to be fought this way," or whatever. If that means "We have our thumbs up our butts because we didn't actually realize our boss was so hard" or "We actually have this secret door, see, but you have to be facing backwards on one leg while wearing an earth staff and spitting into the wind to see the its location in a thousand foot cave and speak the words of the dead precisely at midnight to unlock the door to the passageway" doesn't really make a big difference, in my opinion.

[Loziel]

"The aim of these changes is to create battles where a decisive outcome may be reached within a shorter period of time. "

Don't like the sound of this one. Could be like "Ok don't kill me in 5 hours and I'll use a decisive move to wipe your group!"

Lol AV uses 'Decisive Moves' pretty damn fast already. PW less so it seems. will be interesting to see how this ends up. Who knows, but this time next year we could be seeing some Mars Rings Ninurtas Sash's and Shenglong's in whitegate...... yeah right

[Ashira]

because for all intensive purposes

Sorry... grammar hammer check. :/

*intents and purposes


It's like the third time I think I've seen that in a few months. I must nip it in the bud before it becomes the next "could of/should of/would of"!

:D

[Charismatic]

Sorry... grammar hammer check. :/

*intents and purposes


It's like the third time I think I've seen that in a few months. I must nip it in the bud before it becomes the next "could of/should of/would of"!

:D

If any one person could of done that, they would of done it already. You should of thought of that already.

[Kayos]

Does it really matter if something is technically possible to kill? If no one has killed it after this long then the possibility of it being killed seems pretty irrelevant to me...

[ringthree]

This isn't correct, at all. <.<

Let's use some common sense here, they just said in that statement that none of these NMs were intended to be fought for such long periods of time.

At the same time not too long ago, they came out and said that AV is expected to be an 18+ hour fight. And if you even ever watched the AV video you'll see, thanks to the day timers, that it had to have been over the course of about that time anyway. And they KNEW how to beat it. So regardless of whether you trust what they meant by '18-hours', you have the cold hard fact of that video.

Despite that huge and obvious contradiction, you think that it's the players at fault and not the company?

This is simply them saving their asses and putting on a face for the public and media. It's called saving face. There are so many contradictions in their statement that if you can't figure out how obvious it is they're just covering their asses with lies and excuses, that it's just sad.

Another example being how the NM rage timers they implemented a while back, were according to their statement 'a technique used to keep players from fighting an NM for too long, to keep them from spending excessive amounts of time and effort on them.' But we know for a fact that this was originally implemented to prevent old grieving tactics that kept valuable NMs in one time slot for weeks or even months.

SE is never going to come out and admit they made some serious mistakes, they never do. Even when they (finally) started the 2h adjustment they made excuses. It's always been this way and right now is no different, and more than ever it's plainly obvious to anyone with a shred of common sense about SE and this game. I don't know how some people can't see that.

And come on, as if it isn't obvious enough this is to save face for the public and press, ask yourself one question. Would these adjustments have happened so quickly (if at all) if not for all the negative press? If you think the answer to that is no, then I think you know what side of the argument you should be on.

The JP guy said it best:

And regardless of whether or not either side of this argument is right, Acturus hit the nail on the head.

First, of all, it's SE fault, I never said it wasn't. But you are blaming them for the wrong thing. It is not an 18 hour fight, it never was, and like I said before, when you did beat AV I think you were close to figuring out what to do, you just didn't get the triggers correct after they ninja'd them, or the triggers were glitched. I believe the fight is supposed to be as long as the fights you have experienced when you defeated AV the first time.

SE is at fault for not giving us a decent clue on how to kill AV or PW, NOT for making an 18 hour fight. Sundi is the only person that said it was supposed to take that long. And I am still baffled why Sundi's word is law all of a sudden, when it never was before and he has obviously said many different incorrect things about the game.

The hint video were just snippets, you are reading far too much into them if you think the actual fight time was indicative of the fights actual length. The only contradiction that exists is the one that you are creating to justify your view of blaming SE for creating an 18 hour fight. Occum's razor; do you believe they were snippets, or do you actually believe that SE hates the players? If someone gives you a key to a lock that doesn't fit, do you get pissed because you tried to jam the key in the lock for 18 hours? Or do you get pissed because they gave you the wrong damn key?

What do you expect SE to do? Come out and say, we are sooooo sorry about everything we have ever done to upset you guys, here are free Riddles for everyone! This post today IS the apology. Seriously, I think people expect a major corporation to issue a personal apology to everyone in the game for something that wasn't done right.

I do completely agree that it is an attempt to save face, that is blindingly obvious, and I also think its obvious that its an apology to the players and a promise to fix the situation. That can all be true, and it can also be true that we were not approaching the AV or PW fights correctly. Those statements in no way contradict. The only way they can contradict is if you intentionally place yourself in some kind of imagined conflict with SE where they are trying to screw with the players, which is just utterly ridiculous.

This may all sound confrontational, but it's not. It's just the internet where group-think rules the day, when people should be stepping back and trying to look at the context of the situation. Anyone that actually believes that SE is not well-intentioned or actually believes that they are trying to intentionally deny enjoyment of the players have lost all touch with reality. We are learning the wrong lessons from all of this. We are trying to find blame where there is nothing to be found, we are looking for blood in retribution. We are all taking this shit way to fucking seriously.

[Ashira]

If any one person could of done that, they would of done it already. You should of thought of that already.

Cruelty. Such cruelty. Gonna have to request a ban.

[Seraph]

Sorry... grammar hammer check. :/

*intents and purposes


It's like the third time I think I've seen that in a few months. I must nip it in the bud before it becomes the next "could of/should of/would of"!

:D

oh my god i just got grammer slapped. I hope there isn't an easy way to make a picture out of that. Posting while tired and cranky is a bad idea. I wanted a real Friday update notice. :/

(And its coulda shoulda woulda. Get it right.)

[Stiker]

What kills me, is people are all of a sudden believing there is a "trick". I just think these mobs suck and SE is blowing smoke up our asses. SE uses poor wording constantly, and this update note proves nothing except SE doesn't understand the English or Japanese playerbase.

If there are tricks, I've never seen any of them work except killing the JoL pets and the 'same day' nuking. If that is the ace-in-the-hole tricks SE is refering to, that's pretty disappointing. Oh boy, less regen. I have seen the light! OH LORDY!

:-/

It's really a little from column A and a little from column B.

SE is has been notorious for gimmick fights in their games. For instance, FFIV -- fight to turn Cecil into a Paladin, you must do nothing. They pulled the same gimmick in FFV in order to unlock the Mime job. The final battle against Zeromus in FFIV also comes to mind in which getting the "Dark Matter" item would make him far less dificult (and if you didn't have a guide, I don't think you would've figured out you could steal it from him...). Ruby Weapon in FFVII was a huge gimmick fight (and horribly long to boot). Final fight in Chrono Cross had one of the worst gimmicks ever with having to play the "elemental song" or whatever, which was mostly an exercise of watching the final boss fuck up the order and screw you.

I could list even more examples. In those listed cases though there was a huge difference than what we see here. Someone, somewhere knew what was going on. Strategy guides were written, trail and error could be done quickly, and just in general, SE wasn't tight lipped about their games' secrets. FFXI has been the huge exception to this rule. Letting players figure things out for themselves is great, but thinking we can trail and error bosses like PW and AV that have horrid pop conditions with practically no hints or other information other than what we find is just fucking asinine.

[Ashira]

...but thinking we can trial and error bosses like PW and AV that have horrid pop conditions with no save button, no reset, and not having to rely on 17 other people having free time, too, is just fucking asinine.

Fixed!

[Aerin]

They're only changing it because of the media blitz. Even if every endgame ls on every server had tried to kill it for 18+ hours for the next year, I still couldn't imagine them changing it without outside pressure.

[ringthree]

Stiker scores! Assist to Ashira.

[Seraph]

I could list even more examples. In those listed cases though there was a huge difference than what we see here. Someone, somewhere knew what was going on. Strategy guides were written, trail and error could be done quickly, and just in general, SE wasn't tight lipped about their games' secrets. FFXI has been the huge exception to this rule. Letting players figure things out for themselves is great, but thinking we can trail and error bosses like PW and AV that have horrid pop conditions with practically no hints or other information other than what we find is just fucking asinine.

Clearly FFXI is a secret Japanese military program designed to locate people who can read the Developers minds. It makes the most sense of anything else I can think of.


"Ok FFXI, I'm thinking of a number. Guess what it is!!! Well, maybe it's a number, a word, or a phrase. It's definately in a speakable language. I think.

Got it yet?

Nope, it wasn't 'kitty'. Come back next week, I'll let you try again."


Does noone else just really think this approach is retarded? (Unpossible even!) /eyeroll