Regarding Specific Notorious Monsters (AV + PW + JOL)

[Sady]

At least give credit to Bill Hicks on this one.

Thanks for clearing that up, I couldn't remember his name. I just remembered the line from the American Zeigiest movie.

My point is that there's not much point in arguing with someone that's allready made up their mind. If they want to continue to believe that AV can be defeated (as SE intended) dispite INSURMOUNTABLE evidence of the contrary then you might as well let them live in their fantasy world (delicious ironing? ;p).

EDIT: Wewt, claim lucky page #13!

[Kabbalah]

I don't think I'm more grizzled than you are, LD.

By the way, a bit off-topic, but since someone mentioned 'cryptic' solutions to in-game problems, how the fuck did anyone ever figure out the passcodes to those Strange Apparatuses?

[Stromgarde]

They dropped a hint or two at one of the conventions, I can't remember which though. Same principle at work as the goblin drink, at any rate.

[The Blackrose]

Thanks for clearing that up, I couldn't remember his name. I just remembered the line from the American Zeigiest movie.

My point is that there's not much point in arguing with someone that's allready made up their mind. If they want to continue to believe that AV can be defeated (as SE intended) dispite INSURMOUNTABLE evidence of the contrary then you might as well let them live in their fantasy world (delicious ironing? ;p).

EDIT: Wewt, claim lucky page #13!

The really sad part is now that he who spouts off with fits of intensive verbal diarrhea has pretty much called out Ruke, who's willing to slap his ass down with War and Peace. Popcorn, anyone?

[Geostigma]

The only thing that would make changing JoL not a complete waste of time is if they are just making it so AV pops 100% of the time now.

[Seraph]

The really sad part is now that he who spouts off with fits of intensive verbal diarrhea has pretty much called out Ruke, who's willing to slap his ass down with War and Peace. Popcorn, anyone?

Was it Ryko with the "Not going anywhere for awhile?" Sig with some DD at Kirin with a Snickers?

Candybars might be more appropiate than popcorn for this thread. I hope you have enough to last until 'early September'.

[Kabbalah]

Thanks for clearing that up, I couldn't remember his name. I just remembered the line from the American Zeitgeist movie.

My point is that there's not much point in arguing with someone that's already made up their mind. If they want to continue to believe that AV can be defeated (as SE intended) despite INSURMOUNTABLE evidence of the contrary then you might as well let them live in their fantasy world (delicious ironing? ;p).

EDIT: Wewt, claim lucky page #13!

Oh, there's no doubt in my mind that it's possible to defeat AV as SE intended. However, saying it's possible is like saying it's possible for HL Mencken to program an iPod: he's just going to look at it, wonder how you can fit a record into such a small box, then dismiss it as yet another product of indolent Eastern intellectualism or the world's cleanest-looking paperweight until you give him a fucking instruction manual or show him how it's done.

[Max™]

I just got the image of an elvaan whomping someone upside the head with a huge ass tome.

Omg, it was a flash from the future, Rukenshin is going to level Scholar!

[Ayn]

Was it Ryko with the "Not going anywhere for awhile?" Sig with some DD at Kirin with a Snickers?

Yes, and I still remember the goddamn Kirin that prompted it. It's bad when you're begging an LS to let you kill their Kirin and let them have all the drops, so that you can go ahead and kill your Kirin in a timely fashion.

Also, in light of the Pandemonium Warden nonsense. .

I don't suppose "I love lamp" would be an appropriate thing to say, would it?

[Kimiko]

The question remains though, what as a community should be considered too hard? Granted the last time I fought anything along the lines of a "hard" HNM was a couple years ago (back when Wyrms were still 3-4 hour fights at the least). I think we need to send a clear message to SE as to what the upper standard should be placed and then work from that point.

Also, it brings up the question of the types of testing that SE does on these types of mobs. In all honesty, SE seriously needs to consider opening up a test server to the public that can be used to thoroughly test every aspect of any new material BEFORE it's launched to the general populace.

[LD]

I don't think I'm more grizzled than you are, LD.

By the way, a bit off-topic, but since someone mentioned 'cryptic' solutions to in-game problems, how the fuck did anyone ever figure out the passcodes to those Strange Apparatuses?

Pretty sure we got it from a JP FFXI mag that explained it.

[Tarage]

Wait wait...

The Japanese players think we have an NA Button now?

FUCK YEAH!

[Charismatic]

Wait wait...

The Japanese players think we have an NA Button now?

FUCK YEAH!

They do?
I where did I miss that?

[Toksyuryel]

Three years of being lost at sea

icwutudidthar

[Corrderio]

They do?
I where did I miss that?

The JPs are thinking SE is only listening to NAs now or something stupid like that. Elmer posted some things the JP players are saying earlier in this thread.

[Tarage]

They do?
I where did I miss that?

Japanese people complain and nothing happens.
Foreigners lodge a complaint and they are "taken under serious consideration."

Thus, NA Button!

[AnonRamuh]

They do?
I where did I miss that?

• Japanese people complain and nothing happens.
  Foreigners lodge a complaint and they are "taken under serious consideration."

here

[Sady]

To Kabbalah:

I tend to agree with you. Maybe if they explained to us clearly and concisely how they intended it to be done we could no doubt reproduce that strategy given time. That is, assuming their responce wouldn't be "bring the whole server and sac your exp for 10+ hours until AV gets tired of beating on you and gives up. duh, you never watched Rocky?". I probably should have worded it a bit better though but oh well.

My opinion is that if there was a "simple" trick to beating AV (and to a lesser extent PW) aside from a HUGE time commitment the community would have figured it out by now. Case and point, every technique used to date to defeat AV was a trick in its own respect, but none were correct according to SE. The fact remains, nobody has even come close to defeating AV since the last ninja "fix". Moreover, since SE is unwilling to explain their true intentions with these mobs, it stands to reason (as stated by others above) that they may have been unethical. Rather they throw us a bone and hope the problem goes away.

[Correction]

They started believing in the NA Button when the rage timer was implemented and NA shells got stronger and better at the game when they did. Which happened years ago.

[ringthree]

First, it's "Occam" (edit: or "Ockham", if you're extremely pedantic), not "Occum". Second, Occam's Razor is not just a way to say "Everything must be easy and simple!". You can't apply Occam's Razor to a theory which fails to explain the phenomena. If you had two competing theories which DO explain why AV acts the way he does and how to kill him, then you'd be able to apply it. However, if one of them is just "We're doing it wrong", that's not a theory, and Occam's Razor cannot be applied.

You are right about the spelling, I make that error often. You are wrong though about it's application. First of all there are two competing theories, one that it takes 18 hours and it has to be defeated straight up, the other that it's doesn't take that long because of some intermediate but yet still undetermined action or set of actions. Second, the Razor is just a way of thinking about things, an approach to any thought process. Nothing more. If you take the estimated likelihood of an event and compare them you should except the more likely event. That's it. It is not a philosophical litmus test of the certainty of an event.