Regarding Specific Notorious Monsters (AV + PW + JOL)

[Correction]

The third theory is that the mob is awfully designed and does nothing obvious to indicate that you're doing it wrong. The form-changing really does look like progress. Even if there were some undiscovered method of weakening it to a 3 hour fight the cost of discovering it is still 18 hours of agony for BtL and still no discovery. It's not their fault that SE didn't give them a single goddamn clue how to fight it beyond the obvious 'tank it and do damage to it' method that's worked on everything so far.

It was fun learning how to pull Ixion because the penalty for failing was seeing him run like Cactrot Rapido out of the zone.

It's not fun learning how to kill PW because the penalty for failing is...well I've already said it.

[The Blackrose]

You are right about the spelling, I make that error often. You are wrong though about it's application. First of all there are two competing theories, one that it takes 18 hours and it has to be defeated straight up, the other that it's doesn't take that long because of some intermediate but yet still undetermined action or set of actions. Second, the Razor is just a way of thinking about things, an approach to any thought process. Nothing more. If you take the estimated likelihood of an event and compare them you should except the more likely event. That's it. It is not a philosophical litmus test of the certainty of an event.

Jesus Christ, you sound like the graduate student in Good Will Hunting.

Can't wait for someone to drive by, bitch slap you yet again and go "So how do you like dem apples?"

[Seraph]

You are right about the spelling, I make that error often. You are wrong though about it's application. First of all there are two competing theories, one that it takes 18 hours and it has to be defeated straight up, the other that it's doesn't take that long because of some intermediate but yet still undetermined action or set of actions. Second, the Razor is just a way of thinking about things, an approach to any thought process. Nothing more. If you take the estimated likelihood of an event and compare them you should except the more likely event. That's it. It is not a philosophical litmus test of the certainty of an event.

I think anyway that anyone slices it, the situation is still bullshit. This isn't how you make successful games, by annoying the playerbase by being so closed off about things and causing them to give up. I think we can at least all agree on that.

We can argue about this crap until the servers go down for good, but we won't really know anything until update time. Let's just hope the changes actually fix something for the better. I'm also hoping, if there was a trick and they remove it, they at least tell us what it was. I don't ever want them recycling old failures as new content.

[LD]

Personally, I prefer to interpret Occam's Razor as 'All other things being equal, that which assumes the least is probably correct.'

'God did Everything' is a simple concept, but it assumes a lot, since you first have to prove the existence of God. Science can eventually reach a similar dead end, but there's enough out there to prove supporting theories, so it assumes less. That said, it's not meant to be an absolute, but it's what you'd call logical.

[Zosi]

You are right about the spelling, I make that error often. You are wrong though about it's application. First of all there are two competing theories, one that it takes 18 hours and it has to be defeated straight up, the other that it's doesn't take that long because of some intermediate but yet still undetermined action or set of actions.

Your logical mistake here is that you're applying Occam's Razor to a theory and an unknown set of theories that may contain zero members. You can't just say "This theory is complex, any theory that is more simple is more likely to be right, therefore there is a simpler theory", which is precisely what you've said through your horrible misapplication of the concept.

Second, the Razor is just a way of thinking about things, an approach to any thought process. Nothing more. If you take the estimated likelihood of an event and compare them you should except the more likely event. That's it. It is not a philosophical litmus test of the certainty of an event.

The only thing you even close to have right in this paragraph is that Occam's Razor doesn't deal in certainties. The rest is a mix of pseudo-philosophical bullshit and a misunderstanding of basic probability. It doesn't really even support anything you've said, it just floats there and makes you look like a dumbass, a textual monument to your inability to properly apply a logical argument.

[Katlan]

This thread sure has gone down hill to ppl bickering back-&-fourth

[Infini]

They dropped a hint or two at one of the conventions, I can't remember which though. Same principle at work as the goblin drink, at any rate.

The last convention....

http://fc08.deviantart.com/fs31/f/20...ishTamales.jpg

[Spider-Dan]

When dealing with Squenix, you must always treat them like an evil genie that will take every wish you make (e.g. "I want to be happy") and execute it in the most undesirable way that it could possibly be interpreted (e.g. you get hit in the head, suffer brain damage, and become incapable of feeling any emotion but happiness, even as you sit drooling, homeless, and alone on the street).

A sawbuck says they add rage timers and call it a day. But not just any rage timer; when your alloted time has expired, PW/AV start spamming instant-cast Zantetsuken (without the /heal loophole), and with added effect: dispels all buffs. And rage does not go away if it's left alone.

[LD]

This thread sure has gone down hill to ppl bickering back-&-fourth

'Downhill' would suggest we started somewhere higher, and I really don't think we did.

[AnonRamuh]

'Downhill' would suggest we started somewhere higher, and I really don't think we did.

THIS!

[Ace-o-fire]

When dealing with Squenix, you must always treat them like an evil genie that will take every wish you make (e.g. "I want to be happy") and execute it in the most undesirable way that it could possibly be interpreted (e.g. you get hit in the head, suffer brain damage, and become incapable of feeling any emotion but happiness, even as you sit drooling, homeless, and alone on the street).

A sawbuck says they add rage timers and call it a day. But not just any rage timer; when your alloted time has expired, PW/AV start spamming instant-cast Zantetsuken (without the /heal loophole), and with added effect: dispels all buffs. And rage does not go away if it's left alone.

kind of like the movie bedazzled. Everything is good and it looks nice, till you look for what you want

[orson]

More irrelevant conjecture

Seriously dude you need to just give it up. I seriously am guessing that you don't give two craps about the fact you're making an idiot out of yourself based on an obsession over semantic arguments and making your whole theory based on conjecture. There is more proof pointing to the fights being ridiculously long and nigh impossible. There is no proof or hint of neither an existing trick nor any method to discover said trick. The fact that you can't just let it go shows that you're a person that pretends you know the truth when in fact you are just being content with your self proclaimed superiority with out actually giving us any proof of your truth. Your belief that AV is beatable when you haven't done it yourself is akin to playing a game of trust asking people to fall backwards and let you catch them, but you stand 20 ft. away in front of them shouting that you'll catch them.

In all honesty this isn't an attempt to flame you in any way but seriously just let it go you're not ever going to be able to prove you're right.


On topic, I just hope SE actually makes good on what it's saying and gives the player base what they. As it stands it's hard to know whether they really make these monsters that much better. After how many years of being elusive and out right denying problems with AV it seems hard to believe they'd just let it go. It made no sense that they player base went how long between AV kills and SE thinks that is acceptable? It seems like SE doesn't even monitor the game and the only way they actually change things is through feed back. That makes me think not that many people actually use feedback.

[Rowe]

Instead of a rage timer I foresee AV has become disinterested with the battle and just floats up into the sky and disappears.

[ringthree]

I think anyway that anyone slices it, the situation is still bullshit. This isn't how you make successful games, by annoying the playerbase by being so closed off about things and causing them to give up. I think we can at least all agree on that.

We can argue about this crap until the servers go down for good, but we won't really know anything until update time. Let's just hope the changes actually fix something for the better. I'm also hoping, if there was a trick and they remove it, they at least tell us what it was. I don't ever want them recycling old failures as new content.

And we finally agree. It does suck, never said it doesn't. And it pisses off the player base enough that it got picked up but the internet "media" and at least that got them to do something about it. Which is good.

[Kabbalah]

Ring, here's how I apply Occam's Razor to mobs like PW and AV:

The problem: PW and AV cannot be defeated in their current forms.

Theory #1 suggests that the players simply aren't skilled or smart enough to find the trick behind beating PW and AV.

Theory #2 postulates that the developers are full of shit and have created a poorly thought-out mob.

If, in the span of three years, hundreds of players (and I'm deliberately low-balling it here) from around the world can't figure out the AV puzzle (the one that was designed when characters were relatively weaker) but can break a brand-new Ixion in less than a week, then maybe it's not because the players are stupid or lazy (a source no less than Kaeko has declared AV "impossible"), but because the puzzle itself is poorly designed by a small development team who refused to acknowledge just how idiotic their idea was until it made it to the press.

Which means Theory #2, also known as the "What did you expect, it's SE" theory wins out over Theory #1, also known as "the players are fucking stupid" theory in the end. Wow, see how simple that was?

[Corrderio]

And we finally agree. It does suck, never said it doesn't. And it pisses off the player base enough that it got picked up but the internet "media" and at least that got them to do something about it. Which is good.

It's simple. SE doesn't care about their customer base unless they feel a disturbance in their wallet >.>

EDIT: And yes, AV is killable. SE just made it a pain up the friggin ass and gave us no hints at all on how to beat it.

[Spider-Dan]

Instead of a rage timer I foresee AV has become disinterested with the battle and just floats up into the sky and disappears.

Yeah, I actually like this idea better. It's the ultimate left-handed slap in the face; if the players are complaining about long fights, have the mob just disappear instead.

[Belkin]

We've seen it done with Animated Weapons in Dynamis Xarcabard, just extend the timer and there ya have it.

[RKenshin]

Wow, and I thought I talked down to people. LOL

Saying why not just I but others here disagree with you on some points is talking down?

I prefer the term educated guess. And the lack of evidence of the existence of something is not proof against it's existence.

An educated guess is more what we're saying. You make an educated guess based off of some sort of evidence pointing in a given direction. While it may not be obvious what that evidence means beyond a reasonable doubt, your educated guess would be that it does.

You're less likely to see someone that knows what they're talking about say 'my educated guess suggests this situation that has no supportive evidence, that counters this group of evidence.' Which is why of all of the different groups in the world, groups involved in various sciences are less likely to be avid religious people as well for reasons I'm sure you can figure out. Not to side-track this debate or get into stereotypes, but it's true.

Your argument is a clear logical fallacy. Again, I rely on Occum's Razor. Is it more likely that 3/4's of a day is needed to beat a monster or is it more likely that we are just missing something?

Since you seem to like your example there, why not? Let's examine the situation.

Two possible out-comes.

1. SE purposefully added NMs to the game that take 10-24 hours long to defeat.
2. SE did not purposefully add NMs that take 10-24 hours, people just haven't been doing it right.

Supportive evidence of the first claim:
- An SE representative officially stated that players can expect an 18 hour fight out of AV.
*Note: Whether or not Sage Sundi or his fucking grandma said it doesn't matter, that's not the point.
- Countless attempts have been made to figure out these NMs (AV in particular), with no success over many hours.
- PW's flow of events is logically sound, making it a 24 hour fight unless there's some stupid change.
- AV video regardless of how you interpret it, SE's video and "attempt" at killing it took place over many hours and they knew what they were doing.
- SE lied about one part of their statement, regarding rage timers, to cover up to the press. Why stops them from lieing about the other part? Do you really expect them to come out and say "yeah we purposefully had an 18-hour NM, sorry, didn't think you'd react this way"

Supportive evidence of the second:
(blank)

So you ask which situation is more likely? I think it's obvious here why I believe the first is, and why most people on this board seem to also, the real question is why you feel #2 is undoubtedly the situation here.

And while your at it tell me how exactly it is a clear logical fallacy to believe the first situation is more likely, as opposed to you blindly believing the second is more likely with no evidence at all? Is it also a clear logical fallacy to believe that a religion is wrong?

[qoute]I am not saying you don't have the right to be pissed, I am saying you are getting pissed about the wrong thing. [/quote]
I'm not pissed, and it's not about who is pissed about what. So stop using that as some force of illogical arguments.

I'm simply pointing out SE's mistakes, and you're sitting their saying that the mistakes lie with us and not them. SE didn't add anything 18+ hours and haven't made mistakes, players just failed to play the game right.

I base next to nothing on any BG meme. I base it completely on my reading of what Sundi has said in the past, and the reality of those statements.

What I will say about the BG meme is that it clearly shows that some people are just looking for a reason to be upset instead of looking to what is more likely to be true. Sundi is roundly criticized for being out of touch, not knowing what is going on with the game and in general not providing good information. All we know about Sundi is tossed to the side when it is no longer convenient. The winds of popularity change and now we should believe everything that he has to say. There is an obvious problem here.

Quote me on where I've ever said anything about "I don't know" or the Sundi meme. I'm not turning around or placing faith or anything, I'm being realistic.

Please reference what I said about your original fights against AV and the length of those fights. More empirical evidence.

I don't understand how what you said about our or anyone else's past AV fights is evidence of anything. Sighting your own opinion on someone else's accomplishments isn't evidence.

As I said back then, the reason they zoomed in on the timers was only to indicate that when the day changed they changed the spells they were casting. The gaps between the clips were clearly not intended to show the real passage of time. Again, your fights against AV lend some support to this notion.

This is more of an educated guess, but still lacking what it needs to be more than just a guess. The problem is you approach this whole situation like you're absolutely correct and there's no room for any reasoning in any other direction. Doing so is illogical and incorrect.

I at least know I'm not sitting here and trying to convince people that it is absolutely one way, I'm saying it's much more likely.

At this point, you are taking this quite personally.

Nope, I just like to argue and am being blunt in my points! Since you've kind of missed my point and made the wrong assumptions about what I've been trying to say a few times now.

Accusations of a video game company of lying has move this out of the realm of reality into the X Files. I am just attempting to make logical conclusions from the evidence at hand. I really do believe at some point people have lost touch with reality and are assigning ill intentions to the actions that SE has taken, as if they want to hurt the players.

This is where you miss the point again.

Do you seriously think that I or really anyone here thinks any company would purposefully try to hurt its consumers? I hope your answer is no.

But do I think it's possible for SE to implement an NM in the game that they thought people would enjoy the challenge of, but realized they were wrong and perhaps took things too far? Yes. SE has put new NMs in every patch, and before long every NM becomes farming status and is nothing big. SE hates this.

They've come out and said as much. They hate when they add new things in the game that are supposed to be incredibly challenging, and then before you know it they're so easy that people are killing them in no time at all and whining about the lack of challenge.

Even many players don't like it. People complain about stuff being too easy rather often, and even Kaeko mentioned he liked the idea of AV.

So is it really completely out of left field to think that when players want a challenge, and the company wants to give a challenge, that they would experiment and make something too challenging? There are still people that would like an 18 hour fight, but most of us just don't.

So no I don't think they purposefully wanted hurt players or cause havoc, and it's stupid and missing the point if you think that's my argument.

The point at which I start disagreeing with you is when you go off the deep end, and start ascribing emotional value to their statements. Accusations of lying with the intention of harming the player base for example. If it is not about SE and their intentions, then why invest so much emotion into this rather than being analytical about it?

Wait what? I accused them of lieing to cover their ass, and that's a fact. I'm not being emotional either, I am being analytical. You if anything, are being emotional... I am sighting evidence and reasoning behind my thoughts, you're simply taking what I say the wrong way, making assumptions and statements with no evidence, and missing the point over and over.

I never said they were trying to harm the player base or intentionally causing harm. Quote me on that please, or stop making up stuff to support your argument. <.<

I am agreeing with a large portion of what you are saying. The only thing I am disagreeing with is that the fight is intended to be 18+ hours long and that SE has it out against the players. Outside of that we pretty much agree on how mobs like that should be handled.

Again I never said SE was out for the players, for the third time. Still missing my points.

[Kabbalah]

I'm not sure which is worse: the thought that SE doesn't respect their players, doesn't like their players, or is entirely apathetic towards their players.