Regarding Specific Notorious Monsters (AV + PW + JOL)

[Ramses]

You know what's funny? It sounds like SE thinks we know how to enfeeble AV and PW, but just can't do it. They didn't say that figuring out the method is too hard, they said it seems that the method itself is too hard. Of course this would be backwards and I wonder if that is really what they think.

As far as AV goes, I believe no doubt he can be killed in a reasonable amount of time exactly as is, though I doubt his readying two hours is the answer. In fact, I don't think manafont and benediction are the problem. I'd say the main reason AV isn't on farm status is that he is a very rare pop after fighting boring ass JoL. If AV was a forced pop, he'd have been figured out long ago.

[Suiram]

I've been picturing some dev guys getting called down to the office of a SE higher-up who demands to know what they intend to do to rectify the current situation. A dev guy says, "we can just tell them what we had in mind for them to do to kill it, then it should only take 3-4 hours on average" and the SE honcho being like "that's not good enough at this point" so they shorten the fights' intended lengths as well.

[RKenshin]

You know what's funny? It sounds like SE thinks we know how to enfeeble AV and PW, but just can't do it. They didn't say that figuring out the method is too hard, they said it seems that the method itself is too hard. Of course this would be backwards and I wonder if that is really what they think.

As far as AV goes, I believe no doubt he can be killed in a reasonable amount of time exactly as is, though I doubt his readying two hours is the answer. In fact, I don't think manafont and benediction are the problem. I'd say the main reason AV isn't on farm status is that he is a very rare pop after fighting boring ass JoL. If AV was a forced pop, he'd have been figured out long ago.

I have to disagree.

Any LS that has wanted to try something on AV gets it to pop eventually. I've never heard of any LS having some kind of plan for AV but not doing it just because it wouldn't pop every JoL kill. It's rather easy to build a ton of JoL sets in a short time (I still can't believe Kaeko I think said his shell has like 30+?), and how often you get it to pop really doesn't change what you get done when you have it popped. Once you have it and you have a plan, you're usually holding it for hours and hours and not letting it depop until you're done. If it depopped like instantly, then yeah I'd probably agree with you... But it doesn't.

People don't even usually do anything with AV unless they have a plan, and if they have a plan they will just kill JoL as many times as it takes to get it to pop. Otherwise if there is no plan, people just let it depop most of the time... It isn't worth just playing around with every time you see one just for the hell of it, and losing a ton of exp/effort/time for nothing. Back when AV was first introduced people might do that, but it's been years now and most just simply don't care to waste time with it.

If AV popped more often it'd just simply be allowed to depop more often.

[Tarage]

No, I have read all the old threads, what people were focusing on was 'readies' being 'reactionary' 2hr based on TP, and if it did this you were fucking up. I can tell you for 100% certainty that no one in the game has done this example: 'Absolute Virtue readies Chainspell' > 'PC uses Chainspell' in a short period of time, or even at ALL for that matter. Why do I know this? I proved with my SS and AV attempt that 'readies' is not reactionary, but based on a "mode" so to speak, and AV NEVER starts in that mode, there is either a period of time, or a certain thing you must do to place AV in that "mode", lets say AV does 10 'readies' 2hr in that mode before going back to normal at which point you would have to wait, or redo whatever it is you do to get AV to 'readies', 10 2hr, ALL of which are 100% random so in theory it could just NOT do benediction, or manafont during that period, and you would have to wait or place it back to 'readies' mode, which even if it DID do those 2hrs you could fuck up easily, and you would have to wait again and again.

That alone will be the 10~18hr time frame they were talking about for the kill. No one in the game knows how to make AV 'readies' 2hr, and what I am working on, or was rather, until the news of nerf, was how you go about making AV go to that mode which we clearly had it in. The odds of someone 2hring the SAME 2hr after 'Absolute Virtue readies 2hr' in a time frame of maybe ~3sec is almost non-existant when you don't even fucking know how to make it 'readies' OR what 'readies' even means, and like I said people thought it was reactionary. The most obvious thing to do is recreate our exact attempt which ended in me sacking AV into linking aerns, and AV going into a 'readies' mode. Which I was going to be working on until this nerf.

I said 'You people really don't know how to lock AV?' as more of a joke than anything, but seriously only posted that out of the anger I got out of some of these idiots posting AV is impossible, and it was not intended to be killed ect ect. There is a 99% chance locking has something to do with readies, and I hope everyone understands that, for if you don't you need to wake the fuck up.

And you wonder everyone wishes you'd just die already. It's so we don't have to listen to your 'I'm right because I am, even though I've never tested it and have no friends who'd let me waste their time' bullshit.

[Ramses]

I have to disagree.

Any LS that has wanted to try something on AV gets it to pop eventually. I've never heard of any LS having some kind of plan for AV but not doing it just because it wouldn't pop every JoL kill. It's rather easy to build a ton of JoL sets in a short time (I still can't believe Kaeko I think said his shell has like 30+?), and how often you get it to pop really doesn't change what you get done when you have it popped. Once you have it and you have a plan, you're usually holding it for hours and hours and not letting it depop until you're done. If it depopped like instantly, then yeah I'd probably agree with you... But it doesn't.

People don't even usually do anything with AV unless they have a plan, and if they have a plan they will just kill JoL as many times as it takes to get it to pop. Otherwise if there is no plan, people just let it depop most of the time... It isn't worth just playing around with every time you see one just for the hell of it, and losing a ton of exp/effort/time for nothing. Back when AV was first introduced people might do that, but it's been years now and most just simply don't care to waste time with it.

If AV popped more often it'd just simply be allowed to depop more often.

Well I don't necessarily think that is the case. If you could plan specifically for AV, I Think a lot more people would. My ls does want to fight AV, but he never pops. However, in all honesty, I often hope he doesn't pop because I'm just done playing after JoL half the time. I'm bored and I've been doing my playing for the night. I just don't feel like a big battle at that point. And I am someone who really wants to fight AV no matter how much he beats on me. The one time he did pop for us in the last 10 months or so, we were definitely not wanting him because we were low manned that night and it was late. If we could pop him at our convenience, we would have done so many, many times. As is, he has only popped for us long ago before we had a sound strategy for him and once when we were definitely not going to fight him. Not once has he popped when we wanted him over a really long period of time. I'm sure we are not the only ls that has experienced this.

[RKenshin]

Well, I guess I kind of agree and disagree. I do think it'd make a big difference if it was easier to pop AV, whether through a quicker JoL fight, higher pop-rate, or JoL just dropping a pop item to use at your convenience. Which is similar to what you're saying.

However I'm not so sure that even if that system was implemented earlier, that it'd all be figured out by now. But yeah it can also be discouraging if you get really unlucky on AV pops.

[Hawky]

Because the other PLD got rocked and he didn't want the same fate to befall him? That same zoom-in occurred when there was a day change and the BLMs changed the element of the spells they were using, which the zoom could very easily have been intended to emphasize. This was all debated many times over in the thread when it first came out.

Ah, was guessing it was in order to make a lock happen and that the lock disappears after a certain time where the next person has to lock it by using his/her 2 hour and they just all panic and use it XD

[Kabbalah]

Ruke, didn't BtL actually manage to kill AV post-nerf? I recall that someone mentioned this, and in the same breath, said that it was so damned tedious that it really wasn't worth the effort.

[Qbertian]

Ruke, didn't BtL actually manage to kill AV post-nerf? I recall that someone mentioned this, and in the same breath, said that it was so damned tedious that it really wasn't worth the effort.

*sigh*

[Virtuous Saint]

And you wonder everyone wishes you'd just die already. It's so we don't have to listen to your 'I'm right because I am, even though I've never tested it and have no friends who'd let me waste their time' bullshit.

I am very sorry, but I have to ask if you can read correctly because I posted our exact attempts, and SS, and what exactly we were doing. I am right because it fits in the video, and I HAVE tested, and like I posted it was 100% in a 'readies' "mode", there is no getting around that fact, and if you think 'readies' has nothing to do with it you are not the smartest person. Please ask yourselves why Apoc Beast readies 2hrs, and why AV can both use or ready his, and then realize that you can lock Apoc Beast's 'readies' 2hrs, along with it's abilities, and it will begin the animation, and even say it in chat log, and yet stop. Also I suggest you ask yourselves why there is a clear animation difference between 'readies' and 'uses' 2hr, in that 'uses' there is the simple dust cloud under AV, and no animation difference, but with 'readies' you get an animation as tho it is trying to do something and yet it cannot. If you want to see how clear the animation difference is check out: DemoLS video#5 @1:12-1:15, and the english SE video @3:12-3:14.

I have no proof that 'Absolute Virtue readies 2hr' > 'PC uses 2hr' (same 2hr) in a short time will lock AV, nor does anyone else, because it has never ever been done, but what I do have proof of is the fact that AV did 10-15 2hr in 'readies' and then it went back to 'uses' after Lateral Slash during our last attempt. All I wanted to do by posting my information gathered was to help anyone with an idea that actually makes sense, and fits with the video at the same time. At least I am making attempts to find the answer instead of waiting for it to be handed to me by someone else; AV's secret isn't exactly rocket science people, it is there, and there to be found.

[Seshat]

Okay guys please don't kill me but this is simply an observation from trying to.. understand the dev. video of AV which I've seen a few times now. When they zoom into the text they only do it when he 2 hours. Yes, I know this has been said before but if you watch the video and what they do in response to him 2 houring it appears that they do in fact somehow lock his 2 hour or something to that affect. He used Call Wyvern and someone in the party used Manafont. Every time there was the animation of a mob (AV in this case) using a 2 hour (the dustcloud beneath them) someone would 2 hr on any job really, and only when he 2 houred. The whms used Benediction and people didn't even recover much hp from it. This isn't so much a theory as just trying to decipher the dev video. I've never attempted AV, let alone the jailers as I'm new to sea/limbus.

*goes back into her corner of silence to continue reading threads for entertainment/curiosity purposes* ><

Edited: Just wanted to add this in. Watched it again (lol) and I saw that in the text there's a part that AV "uses" Chainspell and begins Aero V, successfully casts that just as someone 2 houred. He managed to pull off Aeroga 4 as another person 2 houred and suddenly a 30 second long 2 hour.. ended. He completely stopped casting and used TP moves instead.

[drwaffles]

Ruke, didn't BtL actually manage to kill AV post-nerf? I recall that someone mentioned this, and in the same breath, said that it was so damned tedious that it really wasn't worth the effort.

Initially I wrote out a paragraph of logic explaining why this is such a stupid thing to ask, but in the end all one can do is facepalm really fucking hard.

[Kabbalah]

Initially I wrote out a paragraph of logic explaining why this is such a stupid thing to ask, but in the end all one can do is facepalm really fucking hard.

In other words, "no." I remember someone killing it without using the wall, and that's it.

[Tarage]

I am very sorry, but I have to ask if you can read correctly because I posted our exact attempts, and SS, and what exactly we were doing. I am right because it fits in the video, and I HAVE tested, and like I posted it was 100% in a 'readies' "mode", there is no getting around that fact, and if you think 'readies' has nothing to do with it you are not the smartest person. Please ask yourselves why Apoc Beast readies 2hrs, and why AV can both use or ready his, and then realize that you can lock Apoc Beast's 'readies' 2hrs, along with it's abilities, and it will begin the animation, and even say it in chat log, and yet stop. Also I suggest you ask yourselves why there is a clear animation difference between 'readies' and 'uses' 2hr, in that 'uses' there is the simple dust cloud under AV, and no animation difference, but with 'readies' you get an animation as tho it is trying to do something and yet it cannot. If you want to see how clear the animation difference is check out: DemoLS video#5 @1:12-1:15, and the english SE video @3:12-3:14.

I have no proof that 'Absolute Virtue readies 2hr' > 'PC uses 2hr' (same 2hr) in a short time will lock AV, nor does anyone else, because it has never ever been done, but what I do have proof of is the fact that AV did 10-15 2hr in 'readies' and then it went back to 'uses' after Lateral Slash during our last attempt. All I wanted to do by posting my information gathered was to help anyone with an idea that actually makes sense, and fits with the video at the same time. At least I am making attempts to find the answer instead of waiting for it to be handed to me by someone else; AV's secret isn't exactly rocket science people, it is there, and there to be found.

Call me when you've killed it then. Because until then, I'll regard you by your title.

[The Blackrose]

http://www.flipside-ls.com/Soneldar/...airplane-3.jpg

I just wanted to wish you good luck, we're all counting on you.

Start running. Now.

Now where's my dinner bell. Time to inform the sharks that the chum's hit the water.

EDIT: replacement of quote is now the proper context of the post.

[Suiram]

The interesting thing about Lateral Slash is that the two cases where he readies Lateral Slash and then uses a 2H are for Mijin and HF, which incidentally are the two 2Hs that have special "uses" entries reserved for them in the dialog files.

My guess would be that "readying" 2Hs does indeed have something to do with it, but that the Lateral Slash thing is just a glitch due to the fact that instead of the usual "X readies Y, X uses Y" reporting it's "X readies Y, Dialog Entry Z". I do think Virtuous Saint's theory is about as good as AV theories come, particularly considering the point about Apoc Beast in Bubu and the testimony about AV not "readying" until they linked surrounding mobs, and despite the fact that I looked at both of those videos and couldn't really see a difference in the dust cloud myself. But again, until someone actually tries it it's just a theory like any other, and I don't foresee many LSs popping JoL for the next couple weeks at which point it likely won't matter anymore.

[drwaffles]

In other words, "no." I remember someone killing it without using the wall, and that's it.

Yes, some shells killed AV after the wall trick was patched by causing AV to glitch out and become a relative vegetable. That was then ninja-fixed and ever since no one's been able to survive its onslaught long enough to do any significant damage, hence why it's widely considered to be broken (or at least unkillable without the use of a gimmick that no one will ever figure out).

[Seshat]

Start running. Now.

Now where's my dinner bell. Time to inform the sharks that the chum's hit the water.

EDIT: replacement of quote is now the proper context of the post.

Ehh I tried. <.<

[Ansems]

A bit OT, but does it seem weird that the development team chose to 'fix' these NMs rather than just come out and tell us what the 'secret' was in painfully simple terms? You'd think that an explanation for for an already-existing situation would be simpler than simply re-writing everything.

PW, reminds me of when Einherjar came out and it was SO fucking hard and then SE stated that they made Einherjar hard at first because they wanted to test player's strength.

[Kabbalah]

PW, reminds me of when Einherjar came out and it was SO fucking hard and then SE stated that they made Einherjar hard at first because they wanted to test player's strength.

I'd say that was part of it, except SE also said that the minimum level to enter was 60, which is simply laughable.

Another mistake they made was initially making Einherjar an "all-or-nothing" affair: a full team could be doing great but get screwed over by an unfortunate boss or a wave and wind up getting nothing for their efforts. What made Einherjar much more accessible and attractive to a wider audience than simply toning down the difficulty was taking away the absolutist nature of the event: even if a team loses now, they still a consolation prize for their efforts.

But honestly, you can't compare Pandemonium Warden or Absolute Virtue to Einherjar. Pandemonium Warden was a marathon mob, while Einherjar lasts for half an hour.