Regarding Specific Notorious Monsters (AV + PW + JOL)

[Rocl]

rofl @ telling Rocl to stop coming to his own forums..fail

He's mostly right. I shouldn't bother coming to them, but I feel it is my duty to at least read them to make sure there are no subtle breaking of the forum rules I can expose.

[ringthree]

The problem i see is AV was supposed to be 9-18 hours long, so putting a rage timer onto that time won't do much.

Why does everyone make fun of Sundi, but when he says that AV is supposed to be a 9-18 hour fight everyone then believes him?

The dude doesn't know anything, universally.

[Spekkio]

Sorry to jump on the bandwagon, but this shit is just infuriating.

What exactly do they mean by "unanticipated methods"? If by that, they mean "standard tactical approach used in 99% of FFXI content," then yeah, that's fucking unanticipated alright.

Really, how unanticipated is a straight-forward alliance versus mob fight in FFXI?

i think you really hit the nail on the head there. how is "get the mob's HP to zero before mine" an unintended fashion? grinding through a multi-form mob has been a staple of FFXI for literally a decade (probably closer to 2) so it's only natural for players to assume that this mob is no different. there wasn't even a hint at the existence of a method to weaken PW much less a hint at how to do it. i find myself feeling like i'm playing an old Sierra game without the manual for instructions on the copy protection. there's nothing wrong with puzzles, and even some gimmicks are OK, but assuming we can draw them from the ether and zooms on chatlogs is the primary problem. while i applaud SE for solving this problem, i don't think they're so much fixing it as dissapearing it.

as an aside, even if BtL didn't make history by being the first to beat PW, they did make history in another, far more monumental way. they got SE to change something. beating a new monster happens every update. first to beat ixxion, first to beat PW, first to beat odin, anyone can do that, being the first to get SE to change course, now THAT is something to pat yourself on the back for.

[Ashira]

First time it was a full-on assault for 18 hours. The AV fights that lasted longer had a lot of holding where nothing was done to try to kill AV and only a few people were awake. They weren't relentless. They tried to accommodate sleep and other such silly things.

Well, considering I joined BG at the time LB did their AV, it was pretty fucking stupidly long, definitely had to have been around the 10 hr mark when they opted to go into long term hold because it was just stupid time by then and they had members in Japan, the EU, Oceania, and every time zone in the US who had been on for a good majority of that time. And then they picked up a few hours later and tried again for another stupid amount of time.

I was mostly responding though to the way that guy phrased his post, making it sound like the only reason PW got this press is because of the length of time involved, when we had things like this going with AV 2 yrs ago.

Also, ringthree - I think it's been well established we know we didn't know the "tricks" needed, it's been stated at least 3-4 times in this thread already in some manner or another, not to mention the 500+ AV threads that have gotten started over the last 2 years. No reason to sound so smug, like you knew some secret no one else did.

[ringthree]

"Sundi and Mocchi assured me the key to defeated AV was definitely in the video. Sundi also mentioned that AV is about an 18 hour battle - not including the time it takes to kill Jailer of Love. He said if you get really lucky with the order in which AV uses it's abilities you may get it down to a 9 or 10 hour battle. This explains why so many people can use their 2 hour multiple times in the course of the battle as shown in the video they created."

http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewt...p?f=84&t=14253

Sundi also mentioned that AV is about an 18 hour battle - not including the time it takes to kill Jailer of Love.

Sundi also mentioned...

Sundi

Sundi is your GOD!

[Ashira]

Sundi is your GOD!

When no other information at all comes from any other source, you kind of unfortunately have to take him at his word.

Mocchi was also mentioned in said quote.

[Dohorehn]

hmmmn 'unanticipated methods'... invincible bosses........ why does giygas from earthbound come to mind? maybe we should have used the pray command 9 times to defeat AV!

or... maybe... SOULTRAPPERS? *is slapped down hard and stomped on the face*

[ringthree]

Also, ringthree - I think it's been well established we know we didn't know the "tricks" needed, it's been stated at least 3-4 times in this thread already in some manner or another, not to mention the 500+ AV threads that have gotten started over the last 2 years. No reason to sound so smug, like you knew some secret no one else did.

No, I would say that a good 50% actually believe that AV could not be defeated, and that PW was intended to be an 18 hour fight. Smart people knew this was wrong, but other people read into far too much crap. I have posted several times about the fact that there were ways to beat them but that we just did not know them, and I got shouted down by a ton of people.

I didn't know any secret at all, I was just noting what I believed to be rather obvious. Being able to note the obvious definitely is not something to be smug about, but seeing people that couldn't put 2 and 2 together finally get put in their place does make me feel a little better. Thats just human nature.

[Rajah]

plz zoom in on sundi more, I didn't get it.

[Spekkio]

Well, considering I joined BG at the time LB did their AV, it was pretty fucking stupidly long, definitely had to have been around the 10 hr mark when they opted to go into long term hold because it was just stupid time by then and they had members in Japan, the EU, Oceania, and every time zone in the US who had been on for a good majority of that time. And then they picked up a few hours later and tried again for another stupid amount of time.

I was mostly responding though to the way that guy phrased his post, making it sound like the only reason PW got this press is because of the length of time involved, when we had things like this going with AV 2 yrs ago.

Also, ringthree - I think it's been well established we know we didn't know the "tricks" needed, it's been stated at least 3-4 times in this thread already in some manner or another, not to mention the 500+ AV threads that have gotten started over the last 2 years. No reason to sound so smug, like you knew some secret no one else did.

i think the difference is that from what we saw, 18+ hrs was the norm. AV we were making some progress and backpedaling for an obscene chunk of time, but nobody beleived that we would have to repeat all of the steps tried every time. all of the time invested was spent researching the mob to figure out how to build him. you spend a lot of time designing a car and figuring out how to make it work efficiently, but the production of the vehicle doesn't take very long at all. PW made us believe that we would have to redesign the car from scratch every time one was built, an obviously insane task, which is what made PW different from AV.

[layoneil]

rofl @ telling Rocl to stop coming to his own forums..fail

the guy said thread, not forum.

it's possible to go to a forum and not read every thread (though maybe not for Rocl).

---

Hate to say I told you so... wait, no, I love the feeling of vindication...

We were doing it wrong.

Why does everyone make fun of Sundi, but when he says that AV is supposed to be a 9-18 hour fight everyone then believes him?

The dude doesn't know anything, universally.

why are you so quick to believe SE when they say this:

As a result, some players have engaged these enemies using unanticipated methods which led to extended battle times.

how do you even know Sundi didn't write that?

this SE quote doesn't mean squat, never take PR announcements word for word.

the ONLY way SE can prove to us that we were doing it wrong is if they told us how to do it right, by choosing to change the mobs instead they've closed that door and admitted they were the ones who did it wrong. if they did it right, they wouldn't have to change it.

the whole thing with the Goblin Drink, they just went and told us, they didn't go and change the recipe.

[Acturus]

or... maybe... SOULTRAPPERS? *is slapped down hard and stomped on the face*

Believe it or not, Soultrappers were tried.

[ringthree]

When no other information at all comes from any other source, you kind of unfortunately have to take him at his word.

Mocchi was also mentioned in said quote.

If you are going to debate semantics then at least follow the semantics. The first sentence indicated Mocchi and Sundi said that the key to defeating AV was in the video. Then only Sundi is mentioned for the rest of the statements about the length of the fight.

Sundi is universally discounted for his record of incorrect information. Aht Urghan being solo based being the most glaring example. He is just a PR guy that is looking to tell people what he thinks they want to hear. Thats all, and he should be treated as such.

[Rocl]

the guy said thread, not forum.

it's possible to go to a forum and not read every thread (though maybe not for Rocl).

You know me way too well, besides being confrontational is enjoyable.

I don't know guys, I think the fact Square Enix is also adjusting Jailer of Love just proves they don't know shit, right? God.

No. Seriously, when someone figures out this train of thought tell me, because I'm fairly sure Jailer of Love and Absolute Virtue have some sort of relationship that may cause their fight times to well, be combined and kind of, I don't know 'related'

[Dalecia]

Not worth a reactivation, back to gaia.

[kayn]

He's mostly right. I shouldn't bother coming to them, but I feel it is my duty to at least read them to make sure there are no subtle breaking of the forum rules I can expose.

No disrespect to Rocl. He's been around and provides infinitely more value to these forms than i do. I was just kinda bothered by his QQing over dumb posts. Unless they do break said rules, you can't really do anything about people posting what they want. We (I?) just prefer them to be somewhat on topic.

[layoneil]

He is just a PR guy

and you think this announcement isn't "just A PR" response to the media blitz?

[Lhexh]

If you are going to debate semantics then at least follow the semantics. The first sentence indicated Mocchi and Sundi said that the key to defeating AV was in the video. Then only Sundi is mentioned for the rest of the statements about the length of the fight.

Sundi is universally discounted for his record of incorrect information. Aht Urghan being solo based being the most glaring example. He is just a PR guy that is looking to tell people what he thinks they want to hear. Thats all, and he should be treated as such.

And yet you want to take the word of a different PR release from SE as absolute fact to vindicate your viewpoint? The wording of this release just reinforces my opinion that PW was intended to be a marathon fight, and they are in huge back-peddling mode now trying to save face after the media shit-storm. If it was simply a trick, they would have given us hints about it, the fact they are changing the fights themselves just proves they miscalculated PW completely, and are throwing us an AV bone at the same time to appease the mass protesting.

[Rocl]

No disrespect to Rocl. He's been around and provides infinitely more value to these forms than i do. I was just kinda bothered by his QQing over dumb posts. Unless they do break said rules, you can't really do anything about people posting what they want. We (I?) just prefer them to be somewhat on topic.

It was my understanding that a thread in Advanced is subject to several derails. I'm sorry I can't hold my tongue when someone is bitching about his drops on bullshit NMs in a thread about Absolute Virtue and Pandemonium Warden.

Reading the same shit in a different format is also kind of annoying, but once again, to be expected. Much like, someone's protesting of such, no? So, I filled the vacancy today- someone will take my place I'm sure in the next thread, and someone will fill your spot telling them to shut up too. It's a wonderful picture-perfect puzzle, don't get all flustered and back-pedal on calling me out.

Being a pussy is like totally negative one hundred cool points.

[ronin sparthos]

So the mobs are gonna despawn after a certain amount of time so SE doesnt have to deal with the backlash of being hypocritical to their own "word to the players" huh...

In the ideal situation, AV takes a big nerf (from impossible to difficult) along with PW - in the not ideal situation, both mobs get impossible if "the secret strategy" isnt used.

Oh well, not like they werent impossible before