Sarah Palin, Republican Vice Presidential Candidate

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Maybe, but when govt. intervention creates a problem, I don't see how more govt. intervention will help.

[Krandor]

Government intervention WITHOUT cross party bickering and needs to satisfy various forms of greed would help the situation immensely...

but lol @ that happening. When the much needed bailout has to be padded with a bunch of earmarks just to get it to pass, there's obviously way more issues in place then an argument between Socialism and Capitalism.

[0ni0n]

Maybe, but when govt. intervention creates a problem, I don't see how more govt. intervention will help.

The financial crisis we are currently experiencing is more due to the lack of government intervention. A decade worth of deregulation has let things get out of hands that lenders and banks are selling mortgage backed securities themselves don't understand. Those securities have gotten so pervasive in the world economy that we almost bankrupt the central bank of iceland. so government intervention could help in this case, though i admit that they could have done a better job.

[Kuya]

I'm sure that government intervention is what has caused Nordic capitalism to fail.

[0ni0n]

I'm sure that government intervention is what has caused Nordic capitalism to fail.

I thought powerful unions were the kryptonite to the Nordic model?

[Beckwin]

the scale argument is fallacious. you can make similar, and more accurate, claims that the problems of capitalism are amplified by scale as well- the power/capital gets too lopsided which kills the idea of contracts between two "equal" parties, which is essentially the basis of laissez-faire. but there's nothing about socialism that requires everything to be regulated/accomplished on the national level... personally I favor community-based interactions for socialism. but even so, providing basics like healthcare, education, inter-community transportation, etc can be done at the national level without giving cause to disincentive for work.

krandor brought up something that I feel is worth pointing out again- we're basically brought up/trained to think in terms of capitalism. the boy scout analogy works too, but let's expand on it... some camps would have a specialty or two... say one camp does hunting, another nearby does gathering, and a third one nearby makes arrows and baskets. instead of competing against eachother in trade, they come together in a cooperative agreement (each camp democratically elects a representative) to figure out how to optimally distribute resources between their camps.

[Kuya]

Perhaps, but you're going to have to explain why having better education, having a less polarized distribution of wealth, better health overall, and less crime, are all somehow worth sacrificing for a higher GDP that is only really used to benefit the top socioeconomic ladder. In effect, i see no reason why we shouldn't start moving towards a more social democratic system.

[Demosthenes11]

krandor brought up something that I feel is worth pointing out again- we're basically brought up/trained to think in terms of capitalism. the boy scout analogy works too, but let's expand on it... some camps would have a specialty or two... say one camp does hunting, another nearby does gathering, and a third one nearby makes arrows and baskets. instead of competing against eachother in trade, they come together in a cooperative agreement (each camp democratically elects a representative) to figure out how to optimally distribute resources between their camps.

but what if one of those boyscouts doesnt want to make a basket, and hunting is really a lot more fun? Is he stuck where he is or is he allowed to move camps? If he moves camps, can everyone move camps then?
What if the fat kid is lazy and just eats candy all day? Will he still get equal distribution?

[Azkarin2]

Where is the freedom to choose what I want to do (hunter, arrow-maker, etc)? If I'm allowed to move camps at my own will then whats the point of the democratically elected representative? And if I can't move and my only real freedom lies in voting for my representative, well than that just sucks. Seriously, I'm not trying to take a dump on your entire analogy, just curious as to at what point is my freedom to choose my job limited? It seems as if everybody could choose than you lose the socialist aspect...

[Krandor]

Let the basket makers have a day off and Hunt the fat kid and use him for food for a few days, everybody wins.

[Azkarin2]

Let the basket makers have a day off and Hunt the fat kid and use him for food for a few days, everybody wins.

Somehow turn this analogy into a representative solution for the current US problem and I think we just solved our crisis.

[Nuketwig]

...you really think it's so monolithic that you'd graduate high school and be assigned a place to live and occupation for the rest of your life, lol.

c'mon.

So did anyone else read The Giver?

[Beckwin]

but what if one of those boyscouts doesnt want to make a basket, and hunting is really a lot more fun? Is he stuck where he is or is he allowed to move camps? If he moves camps, can everyone move camps then?
What if the fat kid is lazy and just eats candy all day? Will he still get equal distribution?

There could be competition based on merit for positions as hunters/weavers/etc.

since there would always be a job available, there would be no excuse for not contributing. if a person didn't want to work, they could leave the community, or deal with less distribution to a point, as you put it. however, keep in mind that the workplace would be controlled by the workers... so there's a lesser likelihood of people refusing to do any work at all because they can directly take the suck out of the workplace. in addition to that, I tend to think a lot of the inherently sucky jobs wouldn't exist/would be handled by committee.

[Vandalhart]

I think the current system of "you work hard=you get paid" provides a more direct benefit and promotes a healthier overall work system.

Because there aren't people out there that are getting massive paychecks when they do barely any work amiright?

[Azkarin2]

Because there aren't people out there that are getting massive paychecks when they do barely any work amiright?

If you would have read the very next sentence in that post you would have seen I'd have addressed this issue. But I'll repeat it. I mentioned that there is going to be corruption/chance (lottery, etc) in any system so its not like you can avoid that in socialism so it really shouldn't be a reason to detract from our current system.

[Plow]

If you would have read the very next sentence in that post you would have seen I'd have addressed this issue. But I'll repeat it. I mentioned that there is going to be corruption/chance (lottery, etc) in any system so its not like you can avoid that in socialism so it really shouldn't be a reason to detract from our current system.

Until you consider that the hardest working Americans are the shittiest paid by far...

[Olo401]

Maybe, but when govt. intervention creates a problem, I don't see how more govt. intervention will help.

Uhh.. the problem was caused by lack of government intervention through deregulation. The most obvious step therefore to correct the problem is to put the controls back into place that were working.

Unfortunately that's not enough anymore because lending institutions are freaking out. Putting the controls back in place doesn't get us back to where we were before this mess started, it only prevents it from happening again. Targeted efforts to reopen lines of credit and pulling the problem mortgage-backed assets out of the market until their true value can be determined are what's necessary now to stop and repair the damage done.

Also, one thing that is being done backwards in my view is the movement of the prime lending rate. It's already so low (now 1.5%) that going any lower isn't going to make ANY difference, except to put more worthless inflated money into an already flooded market. That's a whole other problem we're gonna need to deal with eventually - and that one's gonna hurt too.

Look I don't want these actions either because it's only going to explode an already ridiculous amount of debt, but we have a much better chance at success dealing with massive inflation when it comes than we do giving money to banks now that are too fuckin' scared of the risk to lend it.

[Dimmauk]

People act like we dont have any socialism in America already.

[Zosi]

People act like we dont have any socialism in America already.

Most of the people who act like that don't have a fucking clue what socialism is, they just use it as a catch-all for "non-100%-free-market-capitalist".

[0ni0n]

People act like we dont have any socialism in America already.

and we should have some more... I propose free college for all, in addition to the k-12 education, provided that you can get in the college of your choice by merit.