Sarah Palin, Republican Vice Presidential Candidate

[pohibaba]

oh and the America of 1776 had slavery, voting for white landowning males onry, a currency clusterfuck, etc. Just more reasons for why nationalism is dumb.

I agree with you nearly completely except for the landowning part; it made complete sense for them to keep the decisions to the people who had a real stake in what happened. Non-landowning people frequently moved from place to place and to allow them a vote in local matters could have ended disastrously for the people who had no choice but to stay where they are (landowners).

[pohibaba]

I'm tired of EVERY democrat on TV talking saying "John McCain had voted with Bush 90% of the time." In reality, the majority of those votes were simple procedural matters that even Democrats voted for. Also, they happen to forget that Obama has voted with the Democrats 97% of the time since he took office. Lying by omission: I'm looking at you.

[Daimen-G]

Also, they happen to forget that Obama has voted with the Democrats 97% of the time since he took office. Lying by omission: I'm looking at you.

And this is bad... because? The Democratic Congress has been trying to stymie Bush's efforts to run this country in the ground, and they need every single vote to do it, as they only have 51% majority and not the necessary two thirds to override a veto.

[Daimen-G]

oh and sorry to doublepost, but this man is the true american hero

[pohibaba]

Because it just shows that Obama is just a partisan hack who goes right along with whatever his party says.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I think that McCain is mostly a partisan hack, too.

[Beckwin]

Among those storied Founding Fathers you'll find the men who butchered and swindled the Native Americans of their land and set up the government to favor the privileged class.

[Darus Grey]

you can't say part of the constitution is unconstitutional (or imply it by "shady"). And being against the IRS on the grounds that it isn't directly operated by the members of congress is fucking childish.

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...=240&invol=103

It was ruled by 3 judge panel of the supreme court in 1916 that the 16th amendment offered no new powers of taxation.

Since unappropriated income tax was not legal before the 16th amendment, it stands to logic it was not legal AFTER the 16th amendment in light of that ruling.

The fact is Income Tax is a VOLUNTARY system(it states so directly in the IRS code, which you can search).

There is no law requiring you to file taxes.

Now, the loophole to get around this is corporations are not protected entities and do not have any constitutional rights. The Tax code *requires* corporations to withhold a portion of employee's income before it is given to you(and thus is not in your possession at the time of taxation) to be given to the IRS.

This is "legal" because they are forcing an entity who has no rights to exercise their discretion of your employment, i.e. either you agree to follow the companies policy or they either fire/don't hire you, and the company has to have that policy because they're legally required to.

[Beckwin]

whoa how the fuck can you defend land ownership being a requirement for suffrage? that's absurd.

[Daimen-G]

Because it just shows that Obama is just a partisan hack who goes right along with whatever his party says.

I don't think it's really fair to call him a "partisan hack" when the Republicans literally are just trying to milk America for all it's worth at this point. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...men/emot-v.gif

[pohibaba]

Among those storied Founding Fathers you'll find the men who butchered and swindled the Native Americans of their land and set up the government to favor the privileged class.

Why are you so interested in trying to prove that all of the founding fathers were horrible people? Liberal guilt? I don't want to put words in Churchill's mouth, but my interpretation of what he's saying is that these horrible people were able to set up the greatest system of government in the history of man and now it's being completely eroded. Stop trying to change the subject.

[Beckwin]

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...=240&invol=103

It was ruled by 3 judge panel of the supreme court in 1916 that the 16th amendment offered no new powers of taxation.

Since unappropriated income tax was not legal before the 16th amendment, it stands to logic it was not legal AFTER the 16th amendment in light of that ruling.

The fact is Income Tax is a VOLUNTARY system(it states so directly in the IRS code, which you can search).

There is no law requiring you to file taxes.

Now, the loophole to get around this is corporations are not protected entities and do not have any constitutional rights. The Tax code *requires* corporations to withhold a portion of employee's income before it is given to you(and thus is not in your possession at the time of taxation) to be given to the IRS.

This is "legal" because they are forcing an entity who has no rights to exercise their discretion of your employment, i.e. either you agree to follow the companies policy or they either fire/don't hire you, and the company has to have that policy because they're legally required to.

I'm pretty sure unincorporated self-employed have to pay taxes too, and if things were truly voluntary as you're saying, people wouldn't you know, go to jail for tax evasion. I feel like you and Churchill aren't presenting the whole picture... that burden is on me suppose but I get the feeling this exact contention has been made before and rebuked.

[Daimen-G]

Not gonna read back so sorry if this has already been said but you know it was well over 200 years ago when they wrote the constitution so like yeah, it turns out times change, who would have thought

[pohibaba]

I don't think it's really fair to call him a "partisan hack" when the Republicans literally are just trying to milk America for all it's worth at this point.

If you don't think that the Democratic Party is trying to do the exact same thing, then you're way too delusional for me to even try discussing this with you.

[pohibaba]

Not gonna read back so sorry if this has already been said but you know it was well over 200 years ago when they wrote the constitution so like yeah, it turns out times change, who would have thought

But the law doesn't. America has the greatest system in the world because we're ruled by laws, not by men. If a part of the Constitution isn't applicable anymore, the only legal thing we can do is to change the Constitution, not ignore it.

[Beckwin]

Why are you so interested in trying to prove that all of the founding fathers were horrible people? Liberal guilt? I don't want to put words in Churchill's mouth, but my interpretation of what he's saying is that these horrible people were able to set up the greatest system of government in the history of man and now it's being completely eroded. Stop trying to change the subject.

The goal isn't to prove that they were all horrible, but to show they had imperfections especially by modern standards, you know, the standards relevant to the current citizens of the country.

What's changing the subject is talking about the illegality of taxes and the evils of the Fed when under both of those America has had it's greatest prosperity and then making a patriotic appeal to the now-backwards times of the Fathers as chief criticism of those two things.

[Daimen-G]

If you don't think that the Democratic Party is trying to do the exact same thing, then you're way too delusional for me to even try discussing this with you.

hmm yes, truly the party who wants to defend human rights and equality is the one trying to bring us down

ron paul 08

But the law doesn't. America has the greatest system in the world because we're ruled by laws, not by men. If a part of the Constitution isn't applicable anymore, the only legal thing we can do is to change the Constitution, not ignore it.

Okay? I get that. Most republicans dont tho

The point was, the founders' outlook on the world is far different from the outlook we have today, and therefore cannot be regarded as the be-all, end-all in terms of editing the constitution.

[Quicklet]

The goal isn't to prove that they were all horrible, but to show they had imperfections especially by modern standards, you know, the standards relevant to the current citizens of the country.

What's changing the subject is talking about the illegality of taxes and the evils of the Fed when under both of those America has had it's greatest prosperity and then making a patriotic appeal to the now-backwards times of the Fathers as chief criticism of those two things.

That's such a shaky argument to make. It's equally plausible that America had its greatest prosperity DESPITE those things, thanks to having a technological advantage in the early stages of globalization, and for numerous other reasons.

[Darus Grey]

I'm pretty sure unincorporated self-employed have to pay taxes too, and if things were truly voluntary as you're saying, people wouldn't you know, go to jail for tax evasion. I feel like you and Churchill aren't presenting the whole picture... that burden is on me suppose but I get the feeling this exact contention has been made before and rebuked.

If you look at most prosecutions for Tax evasion, the issue is not the lack of payment, but fraud.

You are not required to file, but filing a false report is a crime(this is where people get caught). Since most people *think* filing is required, those who evade taxes generally filed falsely.


I've run my own business for 8 yrs now(Specifically keeping it a DBA and *not* a corporation) and have never filed income tax related to it, because I am clearly not required to(my mother is an IRS agent whom I have review me every year to make sure I make every effort to follow the tax code up to the point I am *required* to).
I obviously have to file to get paid from my university for teaching, and I've been audited twice, and am still not in jail, because I've done nothing illegal.


Edit: In addition I want to make it clear there are *conflicting* precedents on this, people have been found not guilty of tax evasion for filing "correctly" but excluding self-earned income, people have been found guilty. But it's important to remember these are *jury* trials, and a jury can find you guilty if they THINK you broke a law. Some of those found guilty have been over-turned on appeal.

[archibaldcrane]

Interesting story Darus.

In my line of work I can often work as an "independent contractor" getting "1099'ed" so no taxes are taken out of my checks. I hear of people doing what you are doing and wonder...

When you are audited, does your business come up as a factor in the audit? How do the auditors respond when the lack of filing regarding the business comes up?

[pohibaba]

So, let me get this right: You 1) think that if the Democratic Party gets control of the government, that they are going to stop "milking us dry" (actually, could you explain this phrase please; I'm not sure what you mean by it) which somehow has to do with human rights (?) and 2) that the Democrats will go back to the original interpretation of the Constitution. Is there anything else they're going to do for us?

Edit: to be clear, this post is directed at Daimen-G.