Help me decide between these relic weapons

[Mojo]

It's a tough choice, but I would choose gun if I were in your position. I can't say exactly to what ends the enmity reduction benefits Coronach are, but after just a few merit parties with some Annihilator owners, they seemed very significant. It felt like I could get hate off these guys after just a few katana swings when they opened with a Barrage > Coronach. It's untested at the moment, I wish I had access to one to see.

[Dammerung]

RNG with gun swears that the ws is nearly a hate reset. He parses something stupid like 24% on JoL. Other DD can't do nearly that much since they pull hate and die; he just spams coronoarch and we give him brd and cor with sam and drk in party.

[Mojo]

RNG with gun swears that the ws is nearly a hate reset. He parses something stupid like 24% on JoL. Other DD can't do nearly that much since they pull hate and die; he just spams coronoarch and we give him brd and cor with sam and drk in party.

It sure seemed like it was in my experiences. If that's the case then it could eclipse the bow in usefulness, depending on how long the enmity removal effect lasted(maybe permanent?)

[Tythera]

When I was in a shell with a relic gun RNG he pulled hate rather routinely even using Coronarch ~50% of the time (main thing I remember was on Khim). I know you guys are talking about spamming Coronarch and nothing else, but it's in the same area of damage as Namas, which itself has almost nothing for enmity instead of an enmity down effect. It seems like it'd end up pretty close either way but I could be wrong.

[SamanosukeShiva]

coronach is just plain "no enmity" ws, not hate reset

[Kaeko]

If anyone is interested in testing the enmity effect on Coronach I can help. So is this some status effect you gain after using the WS or is it an effect on the actual WS only like Namas Arrow? People have said both - I always thought it was just an added effect who's duration is based on TP when using Relic WS (like say Regen on Excal KotR).

[Aurara]

im pretty sure the ws itself gives -50 enmity when the ws is used(i.e you have -50 enmity for when you use the ws, not aftwerwards)

[Aragon of Odin]

I'd say go with Mandau. You stated THF was pretty much well your favourite job and the one piece of gear which will make it that much more better would be a relic. RNG isn't even 75 yet, you might find that when you get it to 75 after using it for a while you may get bored with it. If you've had THF for years and still aren't bored with it then it will only make it that much more of an experience having a relic for it.

[Baha]

If you enjoy THF, there's no way you'll be dissapointed by Mandau. Mercy Stroke goes a long way towards turning some heads on THF as DD. Which is sort of funny, since even with MS, regular melee attacks are the bulk of your damage.
HNM-wise, with an appropriate subjob, you should be doing ok, with or without Mandau. For events with squishier mobs (dyna, limbus, salvage etc) you'll get a big jump forwards from it.

I'd really scratch Kikoku off that list, unless you're some kind of NIN-solo fanatic, Mandau's cheaper, you'll get to use it a ton more (NIN meleetanking wut), and it'll do better damage.

[Mikichan_Seraph]

In a perfect zerg situation, Gun should outperform Bow. However, I'm not sure how many shells give their Rngs Double Minuets, Drk Roll, Angon, Dia 3, etc...Cuz I know all I get is Double Minuets lol. Gun and Bow damage will even out in the end, but depending on what you do more one -could- be "better" than the other.

Why do you think that Gun should outperform Bow in a perfect situation? A good RNG can get a pretty much balancing STR/AGI (and in most case, more STR than AGI) - then the 0.16 STR mod kicks in a lot and along with the 0.25 AGI mod of Bow will overcome the 0.30 AGI mod of Gun to compensate for base damage difference between those 2.

Annihilator + Silver Bullet = 47 + 81 = 128
Yoichinoyumi + Kabura Arrow = 81 + 38 = 119

Base damage difference = Gun - Bow = 128 - 119 = 9

Assume STR = AGI; difference in mod = 0.16 + 0.25 - 0.3 = 0.11
Level correction: 0.11 x 0.83 = 0.0913

Even with 100 STR, mods alone can equalise the difference between bow and gun - and most end game RNG can get much more than 100 STR with full buffs.

[terraflarex]

Well as far as deciding on a relic weapon, my personal opinion is that you should go with what will make you the happiest more so than what might make you more useful. When I was upgrading my first relic, I was originally going to do Gjallarhorn for usefullness' sake, but my LS leader advised me to do a relic for the job I like best. In retrospect, I am very satisfied with choosing Yoichinoyumi just because I enjoy RNG more than BRD, though Gjallarhorn would arguably be considered the more useful relic.

So since you say you like thief the best out of your jobs, then I would say you should go with Mandau. Mercy Stroke is pretty kick ass and the low delay on the dagger is amazing. THF/WAR on Mandau with full haste gear is ridiculous attack speed and damage.

I have a few harcore NIN fans who have finished Kikoku, and they love it. Unfortunately, I have not personally used it or seen it in action so I cannot offer much more input on this weapon.

If you do decide to go with a relic weapon for Ranger, then I would personally reccommend Bow over Gun. The Weapon Skill "Namas Arrow" has two additional effects. The first is an increase in Ranged Accuracy for a duration of time based on the amount of TP you have when using the WS (100TP=30s / 200TP=45s / 300TP=60s); I am not sure exactly how much ranged accuracy the WS adds on, but it is noticable and highly useful on barrage. The second additional effect, as mentioned before, is that the Weapon Skill itself produces a very small amount of enmity which does not vary with the damage it deals. I can tell you from personal experience, that regardless of the fact that Namas is very low enmity, you can still pull hate using the WS; it does not completely absolve you from pulling hate, unfortunately, but if you are smart, you will rarely ever draw aggro on HNM fights. Although this doesn't apply to you yet, if you did level samurai to 75, then you'd find that Soboro/Yoichi is amazing in merit pts and situations where you don't have to worry about spamming mobs with TP.

On the other hand, Annihilator is also an amazing relic weapon for ranger, whoever said it sucks is flat out wrong. A member of my linkshell recently finished gun, and the damage output on it is awesome. Again, as previously mentioned, the Weapon Skill "Coronach" has a slightly different added effect, which is that it provides an Enmity down effect for a duration of time based on the TP you have when using the WS (I think it's also 100TP=30s, etc etc). My only complaint with Annihilator is that it does not have the ability to use cannon shell type ammo. I've always felt that it should be able to load normal bullets and Heavy Shell since there is no other special ammo for WS on Guns (Bows can use Patriarch Protector's Arrow, Crossbows can use the CP Bolt from Sandy).

I have not been able to do a thorough damage comparison between Namas Arrow and Coronach yet, but the numbers seem relatively close from what I have seen. Namas works on an 40% STR & 40% AGI modifier, while Coronach is 40% DEX 40% AGI, so you can say that the mods on namas are better. However, keep in mind that Namas arrow is a 2.75x DMG modifier while Coronach is a 3.0x DMG modifier. So again, the two are pretty evenly matched in terms of WS damage I would say.

If expense is an issue, then Mandau and Annihlator are the cheapest options, I think. I am not sure what is needed to upgrade Kikoku off the top of my head though, so maybe that one might be cheap as well. Yoichi is the most expensive relic in the game to upgrade (on my server, at least) just because it uses 0 bynes. That being said, it's completely worth it, in my opinion.

Good luck in your decision and relic upgrading process, and if you happen to decide on doing a ranged weapon and have questions, feel free to PM me.

[Weeks]

I'll never get the love for Mandau. If I'm going to spend many, many millions of gil on a weapon, it's not going to be one that makes me a good DD who also helps with drops and hate issues, it's going to be a 2H weapon or a ranged weapon that makes me an overwhelming DD force. Sure, Mandau adds the same utility to the party/alliance, but it just doesn't seem like it would provide the same kind of ego massage.

[Max™]

1 hit flat fTP Str mod Thf WS + SATA = ???

[Lyramion]

Been doing PUK ISNM with a pickup JP shout.

Did Ku > Gekko > Darkness > SATA Mercy Stroke > DoubleDarkness

The poor thing was at 50% after doing this from the giganting Mercy and SC damage. Very fun indeed.

[Jiyo]

Why do you think that Gun should outperform Bow in a perfect situation? A good RNG can get a pretty much balancing STR/AGI (and in most case, more STR than AGI) - then the 0.16 STR mod kicks in a lot and along with the 0.25 AGI mod of Bow will overcome the 0.30 AGI mod of Gun to compensate for base damage difference between those 2.

Annihilator + Silver Bullet = 47 + 81 = 128
Yoichinoyumi + Kabura Arrow = 81 + 38 = 119

Base damage difference = Gun - Bow = 128 - 119 = 9

Assume STR = AGI; difference in mod = 0.16 + 0.25 - 0.3 = 0.11
Level correction: 0.11 x 0.83 = 0.0913

Even with 100 STR, mods alone can equalise the difference between bow and gun - and most end game RNG can get much more than 100 STR with full buffs.

Ah yeah, I put that backwards, my bad. With Gun, it would be easier to pull out higher numbers than Bow if you were in a less than optimal situation (HQ Gears/Food/Debuffs). If you have a multitude of STR gear, Sidewinder will outdamage Slugshot. So for the OP's sake, since he said he doesn't have much endgame Rng gear bar KO, Gun might be better for him (on paper) if he doesn't upgrade his Rng gear at all. However, it is extremely easy to get STR gear for Rng, Wyvern Helm/Triumph Earrings/Flame Rings/Pahluwan Legs/Etc, so that shouldn't be a deterrent for you (The OP), if you decide to go with a Ranged Relic.

I think the main view for Gun Vs Bow is that it's easier to get high numbers with Gun, but you can do better damage with Bow if geared/buffed correctly.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Unless I calculated wrong(possible?), its probably worth mentioning that, realistically speaking, Annihilator is capable of a 5-hit while /SAM, and Yoichinoyumi is not.

Being able to WS a turn earlier should really eclipse any possible gaps in Slug/Side WS damage.

[terraflarex]

Unless I calculated wrong(possible?), its probably worth mentioning that, realistically speaking, Annihilator is capable of a 5-hit while /SAM, and Yoichinoyumi is not.

Being able to WS a turn earlier should really eclipse any possible gaps in Slug/Side WS damage.

That's an accurate statement; however, by that same token, a Yoichi ranger could sub WAR and have a 6 hit build while a Gun RNG would be on /SAM for 5 hit. Berserk will cause some big differences in WS damages. That being said, I would agree that both of these weapons would put up similar parses on long winded HNM fights.

Edit: Actually, I believe a 5 Hit on Yoichi is possible with some of the recently introduced Store TP gear (Cobra Gear) in addition to Store TP food. I don't know off hand, i'll crunch the numbers in a little while.

[Lyramion]

Hachiryu Sunate and Legs said to give 5 Store TP Setbonus already. Both should be very nice RNG gears anyway.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Hachiryu Sunate and Legs said to give 5 Store TP Setbonus already. Both should be very nice RNG gears anyway.

That'd probably make them to the best WS gear, while Skadi/Scout's would probably be optimal for TP.

[Valyana]

I agree that you should get the relic for the job you want to play most of the time, not the relic that will be most useful in the abstract. Once you have a relic it'll mean you're on that job most of the time, so you want to choose so that will make you happy rather than annoyed.

I've done a lot of Salvage with Rhaegal and his Kikoku, and he rocks. He consistently outparses other (non-relic) DDs by a significant margin, even starting from when everyone is fully geared.