THF co-tank on chariots?

[Artemas]

exactly. I can see a good thf pulling this off. Especially if he/she has experience in tanking on chariots on other jobs before. In fact, i would dare to say, i feel safer with another -good- thf than i would with a -sub par- mnk as far as co-tanking goes. But thfs like that dont exist on garuda!

Richardd, there is very little that you write, where you don’t manage to do at least two of these three things:

1. State how you’re not trying to be self glorifying (even when it's irrelevant)
2. Amusingly enough immediately contradict the above with some pretentious self glorification.
3. State or imply how something or another “does not exist on Garuda” if not for you.

A significant portion of your self esteem must really be tied to this game eh?
No good THF exist on the entire server of Garuda except for you eh? Same for NIN right? What about MNK? SAM too, yes? In fact there are no good players on Garuda except for your esteemed self.

P.S. Don’t take the above personally; just some glaring observation in case you believe your “subtlety” has gone unnoticed.


Anyway, to stay on topic and echo some of what has already been mentioned; while I don’t believe that THF is an ideal tank for the salvage bosses, the job does have access to the basic tools that could make it work. Considering how hate is maintained on chariots and how DMG taken is mitigated. If you’re forced to work with THF as co-tank, sure why not, otherwise there is no need to go out of your way to use THF tanks.


- Kellanved

[richardd]

Richardd, there is very little that you write, where you don’t manage to do at least two of these three things:

1. State how you’re not trying to be self glorifying (even when it's irrelevant)
2. Amusingly enough immediately contradict the above with some pretentious self glorification.
3. State or imply how something or another “does not exist on Garuda” if not for you.

A significant portion of your self esteem must really be tied to this game eh?
No good THF exist on the entire server of Garuda except for you eh? Same for NIN right? What about MNK? SAM too, yes? In fact there are no good players on Garuda except for your esteemed self.

P.S. Don’t take the above personally; just some glaring observation in case you believe your “subtlety” has gone unnoticed.


Anyway, to stay on topic and echo some of what has already been mentioned; while I don’t believe that THF is an ideal tank for the salvage bosses, the job does have access to the basic tools that could make it work. Considering how hate is maintained on chariots and how DMG taken is mitigated. If you’re forced to work with THF as co-tank, sure why not, otherwise there is no need to go out of your way to use THF tanks.


- Kellanved

do you have some kind of personal grudge against me? The "no good thfs thing on Garuda" was a joke, good god. do you wanna let it out like in AA meetings or something? c'mon we can work it out champ <3. if i were to go about boasting or bragging about something, i would post pics in a media section. All i said was i like to tank alongside of a thf. I dont know if you got something against me, but just send me a /t or something.

im the best thf ever? good lord, you clearly dont know me, thats my gimpest job. lol

[Artemas]

do you have some kind of personal grudge against me? The "no good thfs thing on Garuda" was a joke, good god. do you wanna let it out like in AA meetings or something? c'mon we can work it out champ <3. if i were to go about boasting or bragging about something, i would post pics in a media section. All i said was i like to tank alongside of a thf. I dont know if you got something against me, but just send me a /t or something.

im the best thf ever? good lord, you clearly dont know me, thats my gimpest job. lol

Oh come now, no need to be shy, you’ve been doing that for some time anyway.
I told you not to take it personally. Now, I don’t have the time or the inclination to dig out most of the inane things you write, but case in point being how you've managed to keep that same "joke" running with any number of your forum posts or just general comments (BG, KI, what have you) about the quality of this job or that job since you came to the Garuda server.

Now I’m going to leave it at that and stop abusing Artemas’s account as I’m not here to bicker with you.

[Kaeko]

We've had a Taru THF co-tank Arrapago Chariot with a SAM a couple times. Worked out reasonably well even with lack of gear. THF can't do nearly as much DoT as say a MNK or SAM can, but you can balance hate reasonably well because 1) You can always SA WS the boss for a decent damage boost, and 2) You can collaborator others.

It's not ideal but it works in a pinch. Our THF has Mandau and is pretty good though, so as others have said, your mileage may vary. We only did it because our other SAM DC's a lot in Salvage for some reason.

[richardd]

Oh come now, no need to be shy, you’ve been doing that for some time anyway.
I told you not to take it personally. Now, I don’t have the time or the inclination to dig out most of the inane things you write, but case in point being how you've managed to keep that same "joke" running with any number of your forum posts or just general comments (BG, KI, what have you) about the quality of this job or that job since you came to the Garuda server.

Now I’m going to leave it at that and stop abusing Artemas’s account as I’m not here to bicker with you.

i obviously touched a nerve with you somewhere. You take things too literal. Take that chip off your shoulder and stalk someone else's posts.

[Acturus]

Possible? MNK (obviously) + THF able to successfully tank chariots with RDM RDM BRD support? Y/N?

Guessing no but figured I'd ask you people.

I think that this also depends on necessity.

Is a MNK and a THF all you have to work with some times? If so, try it. Trial and error will help your entire team understand the limits of a MNK and a THF tank system balanced against what your support can do.

But, given the option, you'll want a tank with higher DoT and more Subtle Blow than most THFs can provide.

[Neosutra]

Our monks aren't shitty. A thief is capable of extremely high damage. A 1000-1200 damage weaponskill (it can go higher, i'm talking conservatively) has high a high hate spike. It's easy for a thief (Or a good/great one at least) to keep up with a monk on hate, if they don't trick attack, easily.

You are pulling off 1200 damage WSs on chariots and holding hate off mnk cotanks? And Im not talking about "that one time" on a LAC after a charm phase on a Trip WS proc.

Im calling pure and utter BS.

[Khajit]

While we're talking of chariots and subtle blow... Why is it that nin's arent allowed to try and tank chariots? They have more natural subtle blow than the MNK and it's not like they cant deal alot of damage.

[Slott]

You are pulling off 1200 damage WSs on chariots and holding hate off mnk cotanks? And Im not talking about "that one time" on a LAC after a charm phase on a Trip WS proc.

Im calling pure and utter BS.

Hi champ, we have collaborator on a 1 minute timer. Sure, as a thief you lose damage potential not trick attacking as often, and you're typically not the top damage choice. It's like using a ninja or war to tank a chariot, it's not always the best option, but hey you don't always have 2 monks. I'm also sure not every sam/war can tank chariots, but hey some make it happen, and they pull it off well. So can a thief. The question was can a thief co-tank, the answer is yes. So can a paladin. Paladin's don't do great damage, but they can hold hate, so can a Thief. You arent going to be pushing high damage in an evasion build or a subtle blow build.

A thief is capable of doing high damage (Not as high while tanking and attempting to hold hate), and using collaborator on a 1 minute timer. How couldn't you co-tank with the capability of doing good damage, having high evasion and being able to give your co-tank hate back whenever you want? The damage isn't as high as a monks, but it's still damage.

I'll break it down even further for you. Mage hate is too low to matter on fights like these. Even cure bombing, melee's can hold hate extremely easily after 30 seconds into the fight. So lets say the monk is taking it up the ass by a spiked pole. You collaborate said monk (or accomplice if really need be). Guess what, you're tanking now as the thief, not the mages. Shadows down? Taking too much damage because it used an aoe and stripped your other shadows? Trick attack + ws it back onto the monk. Monk now has hate once again. Go behind the chariot and sneak attack weaponskill. Hate will swing in either direction, it might still be on the monk, or might go back to the thief depending on the damage. If its still on the monk? Collaborate, hurray 1 minute timers. You cap hate on these mobs within 2-3 minutes that the chariot is swinging back and forth between both melee anyway. Collaborate and it's on the thief, trick attack and it's on the monk. What's so hard to understand? Thief can play hate control extremely easily. It's easy to tank with the abilities they gave us.

[Slott]

While we're talking of chariots and subtle blow... Why is it that nin's arent allowed to try and tank chariots? They have more natural subtle blow than the MNK and it's not like they cant deal alot of damage.

A ninja can tank. Most melee can. It's not the cookie cutter ideal choice always, so people write it off.

[Neosutra]

Hi champ, we have collaborator on a 1 minute timer. Sure, as a thief you lose damage potential not trick attacking as often, and you're typically not the top damage choice. It's like using a ninja or war to tank a chariot, it's not always the best option, but hey you don't always have 2 monks. I'm also sure not every sam/war can tank chariots, but hey some make it happen, and they pull it off well. So can a thief. The question was can a thief co-tank, the answer is yes. So can a paladin. Paladin's don't do great damage, but they can hold hate, so can a Thief. You arent going to be pushing high damage in an evasion build or a subtle blow build.

A thief is capable of doing high damage (Not as high while tanking and attempting to hold hate), and using collaborator on a 1 minute timer. How couldn't you co-tank with the capability of doing good damage, having high evasion and being able to give your co-tank hate back whenever you want? The damage isn't as high as a monks, but it's still damage.

I'll break it down even further for you. Mage hate is too low to matter on fights like these. Even cure bombing, melee's can hold hate extremely easily after 30 seconds into the fight. So lets say the monk is taking it up the ass by a spiked pole. You collaborate said monk (or accomplice if really need be). Guess what, you're tanking now as the thief, not the mages. Shadows down? Taking too much damage because it used an aoe and stripped your other shadows? Trick attack + ws it back onto the monk. Monk now has hate once again. Go behind the chariot and sneak attack weaponskill. Hate will swing in either direction, it might still be on the monk, or might go back to the thief depending on the damage. If its still on the monk? Collaborate, hurray 1 minute timers. You cap hate on these mobs within 2-3 minutes that the chariot is swinging back and forth between both melee anyway. Collaborate and it's on the thief, trick attack and it's on the monk. What's so hard to understand? Thief can play hate control extremely easily. It's easy to tank with the abilities they gave us.

While I disagree with just how low of hate your mages will take with you stealing half of the mnk's emnity every minute or 2, I can see how a smart thf could manage to control hate a bit more. I just dont think its smart to collaborator the mnk tank that much in my experience.

Also, Ill have to see some SSs of you pulling off multiple 1k+ WSs on non LAC bosses. (I could beleive the occasional one durin a TA onto the mnk tanks, but I would think your average WS while you were cotanking would be 3-400).

[Wizerd]

You are pulling off 1200 damage WSs on chariots and holding hate off mnk cotanks? And Im not talking about "that one time" on a LAC after a charm phase on a Trip WS proc.

Im calling pure and utter BS.

Pretty sure Slott has a Mandau. Using Batardeau, my 100 TP Shark Bites on bosses will do 700-800 damage reguarly without a triple proc when I'm fully unlocked, so 1200 with Mercy Stroke regularly doesn't seem at all a stretch. Armored Chariot is the only one that buttfucks me, and I can't seem to do more than ~600 on him, but I'm rarely unlocked more than halfway.

This is usually with an Acid Bolt and Dia II on, of course, since with Feint on a 2min timer it'd be silly not to Feint > Bolt > WS when you get TP (if you're not meleeing; if you're meleeing obviously you can't do this every WS). Sadly, the Acid Bolt often procs on #3 or 4 and Feint is off when I WS to prevent Dancing Edge. But I digress.

Edit:

While I disagree with just how low of hate your mages will take with you stealing half of the mnk's emnity every minute or 2, I can see how a smart thf could manage to control hate a bit more. I just dont think its smart to collaborator the mnk tank that much in my experience.

Also, Ill have to see some SSs of you pulling off multiple 1k+ WSs on non LAC bosses. (I could beleive the occasional one durin a TA onto the mnk tanks, but I would think your average WS while you were cotanking would be 3-400).

Collaborator steals 25% hate and is on a 1min timer. @ capped enmity (10,000 CE) you're stealing 2500 CE, and dropping the MNK's by 2500 CE. Presumably, your hate is already capped by this point too on THF, so using Collaborator effectively does nothing to increase your hate, but instead drops the MNK's hate to keep the chariot on you until the MNK hits cap again. 2500 CE is regained by the MNK within 30-40 seconds easily I'm pretty sure, and the MNK is now capped again.

While all of this is going on, your damage is causing spikes of VE, right? Correct me if that's wrong, but I seem to remember reading in the enmity thread that damage has both a CE and a VE component. Doing a 1200 damage weapon skill will keep hate on you until the VE wears off or the MNK gets ahead in VE, when you're both capped on hate.

Meanwhile, your mages are primarily gaining CE and any VE they gain has usually worn off by the time they cast their next spell. They're also gaining CE relatively slow compared to the melees, and when a battle lasts 10 minutes, the mages' hate is nothing to worry about.


As for WS damage, 3-400 is incredibly pitiful when you're using Mercy Stroke with SA or TA.

[Kellanved]

i obviously touched a nerve with you somewhere. You take things too literal. Take that chip off your shoulder and stalk someone else's posts.

Well, since you're wondering, you did touch a nerve actually; one that has been rubbed raw. You see, there is very little that gets to me more than pretense. Unfortunately for me, the whole of humanity seems doomed to preen with conceit.

Since you seem to have been aspiring to be the next "Rukenshin" or some such, if you're going to be promoting yourself, by all means do just that. God knows it's common enough, but there is no need to pretend that you're doing otherwise while making sweeping generalization about entire server populations. Also, it's hardly stalking when you broadcast yourself far more than anyone can conceivably miss.


@Khajit: NIN can and has been tanking chariots since the inception of Salvage, and as slott noted most melee jobs like WAR and SAM can too.

[Miraun]

@Khajit: NIN can and has been tanking chariots since the inception of Salvage, and as slott noted most melee jobs like WAR and SAM can too.

Note: PUPs cannot co-tank chariots ; ;

[Slott]

Bingo Wizerd, exactly how it's played. A monk losing 2500 hate isn't a big deal. The hate isn't lost. It's not like if you collaborate your monk, the mob is going to go flying at the mages. It goes straight to the thief. And 300-400? Lol... no wonder you don't believe in thieves, yours must suck.

[Starr]

stop being a poser Richardd yeaaaaaah

[richardd]

stop being a poser Richardd yeaaaaaah

fo' real. man, he sounds like Mr burns from the simpsons lol

[Kellanved]

fo' real. man, he sounds like Mr burns from the simpsons lol

eeeeeexcellent. . .

[Artemas]

Release the hounds.

[Neosutra]

Bingo Wizerd, exactly how it's played. A monk losing 2500 hate isn't a big deal. The hate isn't lost. It's not like if you collaborate your monk, the mob is going to go flying at the mages. It goes straight to the thief. And 300-400? Lol... no wonder you don't believe in thieves, yours must suck.

Ive had Mandau theives with damn good gear, and w/o TA I dont see their WSs doing more than that on any of the high def bosses.

So basically you are a cotank that :

1. Weakens the mnks total hate.
2. Causes more TP moves.
3. Does lower DoT, and less WS (ya, when you want to TA back onto the mnk you can pop off some decent numbers, but whats your average WS non Trick Attack?)

And I didnt say the boss would fly off toward the mages after you steal 25% of the emnity gained, but your mages hate is slowly growing through the fight, as as they fights go on, and you continually keep preventing the mnk from staying at the cap, you are just making things hard for yourself. A nice back to back double attack crit hit from LBC right after a good Discharge and youve knocked a good amount of emnity off the mnk and put alot back on the mages who have to put big cures on the tanks to get back to speed.

Yes, thf tank is possible, no one said it isnt. Its just one of the least optimal options. As for me doubting your WS average w/o TA, I still stand by that till I see some SSs.