Darfur

[Churchill]

Basically, you have a situation where Arab blacks are killing non-Arab blacks. An area of the world marked by Imperialism from many different entities, from Egyptians to Egyptians to British/Egyptians to Libya/Chad and now with the Proxy Imperialism used by multiple countries of the world.

During much of this time, Darfur was left to itself, with the central portions of Sudan, near the Nile, being the ones who benefited from foreign aid and development. The current government is Arab. In 2003, two rebel factions revolted against the Islamic regime claiming that they ignored the Darfur region, and favored Muslims over non-Muslims. The response was to use an Arab militia, Janjaweed, to fight against these rebels with the aid of Sudanese military bombing raids. The Janjaweed and Sudanese government is now accused of genocide, with President Omar Bashir indicted by the ICC. It is estimated that 200,000-400,000 people have died as a result of this conflict, and the Sudanese government continues to bypass UN Sanctions with the aid of China, Russia, and other Arab nations intending to exert their power globally.

The conflict has been largely ignored militarily by Western Powers, garnering criticism for a lack of response from many groups.

Republican Candidate John McCain:

McCain would favor logistical aid, formation of an autonomous group from the UN to stop the conflict, seemed to hint at this league sending troops to fight the Sudanese Arabs. Had no tangible ideas on negotiating with Omar Bashir.

John McCain will keep troops in Iraq and Afghanistan for an undetermined amount of time.

John McCain on Sudan: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uZcDOOnvUA8
http://www.darfurscores.org/john-mccain


Democratic Candidate Barack Obama:

Feels America has a moral obligation to promote freedom throughout the world, wants to send troops and logistics to Darfur immediately, as well as finalize oil sanctions against Sudan. No ideas were presented on negotiations with Omar Bashir.

Barack Obama will immediately begin withdrawal procedures from Iraq (Not overnight, I said procedures) and increase troop strength in Afghanistan.

Barack Obama on Sudan: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QEd583...eature=related
http://www.darfurscores.org/barack-obama


Wiki Background on the Darfur Conflict:

Spoiler: show

The conflict taking place in Darfur has many interwoven causes. On 16 June 2007, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon released a statement in which he proposed that the slaughter in Darfur was caused "at least in part from climate change", and that it "derives, to some degree, from man-made global warming". "The scale of historical climate change, as recorded in Northern Darfur, is almost unprecedented: the reduction in rainfall has turned millions of hectares of already marginal semi-desert grazing land into desert. The impact of climate change is considered to be directly related to the conflict in the region, as desertification has added significantly to the stress on the livelihoods of pastoralist societies, forcing them to move south to find pasture," the UNEP report states.

A meta-analysis of rainfall and other economic and population data, however, finds no correlation between rainfall patterns in Darfur and ethnic conflict there.

A point of particular confusion has been the characterization of the conflict as one between 'Arab' and 'African' populations, a dichotomy that one historian describes as "both true and false". It is important to distinguish the Sudanese Arab from other Arabs of the Middle East. Sudanese Arabs are descended primarily from the ancient Nubians. In terms of racial origin, it is not clear what specific racial or ethnic group the Nubians originated from. Over a period of centuries, Arab immigration into the Sudan, intermarriage among Nubians and Arabs, and the introduction of Islam and the Arabic language, Arabised the Nubians into the Sudanese Arab of today. In appearance, the Nubians look similar to the Ethiopians and Eritreans; at one point, they shared a common history with the latter.

In the late fourteenth or early fifteenth century, the Keira dynasty of the Fur people of the Marrah Mountains established a sultanate with Islam as the state religion. The sultanate was conquered by the Turco-Egyptian force expanding south along the Nile, which was in turn defeated by the Muhammad Ahmad, the self-proclaimed Mahdi. The Mahdist state collapsed under the onslaught of the British force led by Herbert Kitchener, who established an Anglo-Egyptian co-dominium to rule Sudan. The British allowed Darfur de jure autonomy until 1916 when they invaded and incorporated the region into Sudan.[25] Within Anglo-Egyptian Sudan, the bulk of resources were devoted toward Khartoum and Blue Nile Province, leaving the rest of the country relatively undeveloped.

The inhabitants of the Nile Valley, which had received the bulk of British investment, continued the pattern of economic and political marginalization after independence was achieved in 1956. In the 1968 elections, factionalism within the ruling Umma Party led candidates, notably Sadiq al-Mahdi, to try to split off portions of the Darfuri electorate either by blaming the region's underdevelopment on the Arabs, in the case of appeals to the stationary peoples, or by appealing to the Baggara semi-nomads to support their fellow Nile Arabs. This Arab-African dichotomy was exacerbated after Libyan President Muammar al-Gaddafi became focused on establishing an Arab belt across the Sahel and promulgated an ideology of Arab supremacy. As a result of a sequence of interactions between Sudan, Libya and Chad from the late 1950s through the 1980s, including the creation of the Libyan-supported Islamic Legion, Sudanese President Gaafar Nimeiry established Darfur as a rear base for the rebel force led by Hissène Habré, which was attempting to overthrow the Chadian government and was also anti-Gaddafi.

In 1983 and 1984, the rains failed and the region was plunged into a famine. The famine killed an estimated 95,000 people out of a population of 3.1 million. Nimeiry was overthrown on 5 April 1985, and Sadiq al-Mahdi came out of exile, making a deal with Gaddafi, which al-Mahdi did not honor, to turn over Darfur to Libya if he was supplied with the funds to win the upcoming elections.

In early 2003, two local rebel groups — the Justice and Equality Movement (JEM) and the Sudan Liberation Movement (SLM) — accused the government of oppressing non-Arabs. The SLM, which is much larger than the JEM, is generally associated with the Fur and Masalit, as well as the Wagi clan of the Zaghawa, while the JEM is associated with the Kobe clan of Zaghawa. Later that year, leaders of both groups, the Sudanese Government and representatives of the International diplomatic community were brought together in Geneva by the Center for Humanitarian Dialogue to look at ways of addressing the humanitarian crisis. In 2004, the JEM joined the Eastern Front, a group set up in 2004 as an alliance between two eastern tribal rebel groups, the Rashaida tribe's Free Lions and the Beja Congress. The JEM has also been accused of being controlled by Hassan al-Turabi.

On 20 January 2006, SLM declared a merger with the Justice and Equality Movement to form the Alliance of Revolutionary Forces of West Sudan. However, in May of that year, the SLM and JEM were again negotiating as separate entities.

[Demosthenes11]

I think the only reason people care about Darfur is the word "genocide" is throw around there and people seem to have a soft spot for africa. There are a lot worse places in the world and I get pissed when people say we should be fighting in Darfur. Granted it's a shame what's happening there, but c'mon

[Koyangi]

Yeah, this Darfur thing is very serious business, I have no idea why we arent helping them so much yet we're so focused on Iraq, it's all about the oil son. Darfur must not show much political or financial gain for us.

[Churchill]

So we shouldn't go help all those people in Darfur who are getting slaughtered? I mean come on, we're the strongest nation in the world militarily.

One alibi: Sudan has oil interests, they export oil to China.

[Demosthenes11]

The people in Darfur are murdering tens of thousands of people.
Saddam murdered over a million people.

Nobody cared because he was muslim? Kurds are less important than non-muslim blacks? What exactly is the qualification in the mind of the public for things to be so bad we need to help out.

[Churchill]

Well we have a moral obligation as a prosperous and strong nation to promote and establish democracy in regions it doesn't exist or where the journey to reach it is being oppressed right?

[Ghost_Wheel22]

Well we have a moral obligation as a prosperous and strong nation to promote and establish democracy in regions it doesn't exist or where the journey to reach it is being oppressed right?

At the going rate of spreading democracy these days we'll be like post-Soviet Russia in a few decades.

[Demosthenes11]

Well we have a moral obligation as a prosperous and strong nation to promote and establish democracy in regions it doesn't exist or where the journey to reach it is being oppressed right?

I actually had to decide if you were trolling or not. You getting way too good at that lol

[Churchill]

I am presenting a viewpoint different to yours, explain why mine is wrong? I'd also like to see reflections on this issue in regards to the candidates.

[Faris]

Africa was always fucked up. At this time, I dont think the US can afford to send aid to countries with no interest for them. Iraq/Afghan is keeping it pretty busy

[archibaldcrane]

The people in Darfur are murdering tens of thousands of people.
Saddam murdered over a million people.

Did a bit of research, I can't find any figures suggesting that Saddam murdered over a million people, nor numbers suggesting that Darfur's "genocide" is under 100,000.

Counting war casualties (Iran/Iraq war) is a gross misrepresentation of what we're talking about here. Saddam killed between 150,000 and 340,000 Iraqis during his entire reign, as well as 1,000 or so Kuwaiti nationals during the 1992 war. The Iran/Iraq war, while brutal, wouldn't be considered "murder" or "genocide" by any conventional definitions.

Darfur Janjaweed have killed an estimated 200,000 to 400,000 people over the previous 4 years.

Don't try to minimize the slaughter in Darfur compared to Saddam using manipulated statistics. That is just evil.

[Quicklet]

I imagine if scientists discovered a way to use diamonds to create cheap fusion energy (yum), U.S. would be sending troops over to all those African nations tomorrow.

[Brill Weave]

We need to set up a cage match. Churchill vs. Demo. This Friday night! Admission buys you the whole seat! BUT YOU'LL ONLY NEED THE EDGE!!!!!

[Tyche]

Africa was always fucked up. At this time, I dont think the US can afford to send aid to countries with no interest for them. Iraq/Afghan is keeping it pretty busy

That was the exact same thing Clinton said (almost Verbatim) about Rwanda. A few years later he was there apologizing and begging for forgiveness. I'd rather not make the same mistake again. The UN said they wouldn't make the same mistake again. Here it is about 15 years later and....they are making the same mistake again.

[treelo]

Well we have a moral obligation as a prosperous and strong nation to promote and establish democracy in regions it doesn't exist or where the journey to reach it is being oppressed right?

Honestly I find this concept rather stupid. Last time I checked, democracy developed itself in America and what you're suggesting is little more than Imperialism by another name.

That being said, what is happening in Darfur is terrible, but is a common theme running through the history of most developed nations. See slavery, eugenics (or rather the slaughter of those seen to be impure, common in most European countries until WW2), the holocaust for more examples, the list goes on.

A) Being first to developing a stable political system does not give any country the right to impose it on anyone else.

B) Since when did have more guns than anyone else give you the right to force democracy on people? Last I heard, that was the exact opposite of what democracy set out to achieve.

[Creeps]

Well we have a moral obligation as a prosperous and strong nation to promote and establish democracy in regions it doesn't exist or where the journey to reach it is being oppressed right?

I've always hated this point of view. As far as I'm concerned, we have no moral obligation to help anyone. Only the strong survive, blah blah blah.

[Olo401]

www.savedarfur.org

Don't wait for politicians to take action. Period.

BTW, donating in someone's name makes a fantastic Christmas present. I've donated $50 a year for the past five years in my uncle's name (he's an ordained RC priest so this kind of thing also goes with the whole philosophy of Jesus).

[Andarvi]

I think the only reason people care about Darfur is the word "genocide" is throw around there and people seem to have a soft spot for africa. There are a lot worse places in the world and I get pissed when people say we should be fighting in Darfur. Granted it's a shame what's happening there, but c'mon

Really? A soft spot for africa? More like the world doesnt really give a shit about the dark continent. Please give me an example how the world has a soft spot for Africa.

And yeah, Saddam was a bastard, but lets not go into Iraq crying we are fighting for freedom and all that bullshit because Sudan absolutely needs intervention way more so and isn't getting it at all. If anyone think that its location in Africa and lack of oil ties to the US are not factors they are lying to themselves.

[Andarvi]

I've always hated this point of view. As far as I'm concerned, we have no moral obligation to help anyone. Only the strong survive, blah blah blah.

The problem is that we are using that point of view to partly justify a war as we speak. How can we say it in one situation and ignore it in another one that needs it just as bad if not more?

[Demosthenes11]

Nobody has yet to say why Darfur is any different from Iraq. I'll find some figures of them both, but even being conservative about the numbers they have killed about the same amount. Why wasn't it ok to step into Iraq but it's an injustice we don't step in darfur?

It's just really hypocritical for people to say we need to stop policing the world then turn around and hold up a sign criticizing the government for not sending troops to Darfur.

Churchill - we have no such obligation, and a feeling that we do only slowly deteriorates our own country. America may be a superpower, but we don't have the money and resources required to go on some crusade against bad guys whenever something pops up. We have enough problems domestically than to be arrogant and think we can fix everyone else.

I think you were jumping to a conclusion from what I said the other day about Iran. I never stated my personal thoughts on the situation, merely was playing devil's advocate much like you are now

edit: just a quick search
Darfur: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4268733.stm Guess that's where I heard my initial figure, though obviously wrong
Saddam: http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html includes some of his own soldiers, but the guy was pretty ruthless about surrounding Arabs