Absolute Virtue ~ 9/8/08

[Therin]

Odin just proved that you don't need 5 Krakens in one linkshell to kill AV, so everyone complaining just lost their argument.

[Zosi]

Pics or it didn't happen.

He's referring to the fact that three LSs teamed up and combined their zerg DRKs to alternate AV kills. An impressive display of cooperation, but sadly, not something that can be relied upon to prove his point in the general case. Teamups only happen when:

a) every LS can contribute roughly equally, both in terms of killing power and pop sets
b) the LSs in question don't violently hate each other
c) none of the LSs have a chance to kill on their own

Point 'a' rules out any LS that doesn't have quite a few zerg DRKs already themselves. Point 'b' rules out entire servers, and limits the options on the remaining servers. Point 'c' means that unless the LSs are bffs, alliances will break once one LS gets the means to kill solo, which any smart LS would work towards by selling their first few AV drops.

[drwaffles]

How many KCs did they use? We (FR) only used three, the rest of the melees were Ridill DRKs and a couple of MNK/DRKs. I don't think anyone's trying to advocate that the sole means of putting a dent in AV is using Krarks.

[Zosi]

How many KCs did they use? We (FR) only used three, the rest of the melees were Ridill DRKs and a couple of MNK/DRKs. I don't think anyone's trying to advocate that the sole means of putting a dent in AV is using Krarks.

3-6 seems to be the number for KCs, but Ridill and M.kris DRKs are viable as well. Out of all of those, the only one that most LSs have a reasonable shot of obtaining are M.krises, so I'm waiting for a kill using nothing but M.kris DRKs and normal melees, or 1-2 K.clubs/Ridills max.

MNK/DRKs are a joke unless you can post some parses showing that they're even close to a zerg DRK in damage. I'm fairly sure from experience that they're not, SE as /DRK is heavily gimped, even with massive MNK HP.

[donnie]

He's referring to the fact that three LSs teamed up and combined their zerg DRKs to alternate AV kills. An impressive display of cooperation, but sadly, not something that can be relied upon to prove his point in the general case. Teamups only happen when:

a) every LS can contribute roughly equally, both in terms of killing power and pop sets
b) the LSs in question don't violently hate each other
c) none of the LSs have a chance to kill on their own

Point 'a' rules out any LS that doesn't have quite a few zerg DRKs already themselves. Point 'b' rules out entire servers, and limits the options on the remaining servers. Point 'c' means that unless the LSs are bffs, alliances will break once one LS gets the means to kill solo, which any smart LS would work towards by selling their first few AV drops.

to comment on your assumptions which is in general true:

a) there was never a question who can contribute more , since endgame scene in odin is a bit different then other servers . different dynamis & salvage LSs that includes members of each of the 3 LSs . then we did team ups on many other stuff before + some HNMs being rotated between us. so its as healthy as it can be.

b) there are members who hate each other individually between the 3 LSs i bet , and within each LS , but the mindset has matured so that if u hate 1 person it doesnt mean that u should hate his LS as well.

c) i bet every LS TK BBQ or LB can kill on their own , but requires more effort and limited time where everyone is online etc... , but the conclusion was its better to team up to kill faster and smoother meaning JoL+AV every 30min or so , adding to that, more CORs to reset 2hrs hence repeat etc. you cannot compare a team up like this with 1 LS soloing it.

and we are total of 5 KC DRKs , others are ridill or merc kritzzzz

[TB]

He's referring to the fact that three LSs teamed up and combined their zerg DRKs to alternate AV kills. An impressive display of cooperation, but sadly, not something that can be relied upon to prove his point in the general case. Teamups only happen when:

a) every LS can contribute roughly equally, both in terms of killing power and pop sets
b) the LSs in question don't violently hate each other
c) none of the LSs have a chance to kill on their own

Point 'a' rules out any LS that doesn't have quite a few zerg DRKs already themselves. Point 'b' rules out entire servers, and limits the options on the remaining servers. Point 'c' means that unless the LSs are bffs, alliances will break once one LS gets the means to kill solo, which any smart LS would work towards by selling their first few AV drops.

Well I have to say it was kinda weird seeing a PLD from a "rival" LS tank our JoL popset. But while feeling weird it was also a great thing to see, because despite possible beef in the past we managed to work together with 70 people and NO DRAMA at all. Everyone was happy for the other one and people were staying longer than they usually planned, just to help TK also kill an AV, since their first popset was a wipe at 11%.

If someone told me some months ago that our 3 linkshells would fight side by side I would have told him to stop doing drugs.

Of course our 3 linkshells never really hated each other like maybe some other linkshells on other servers do (or some specific ones on Odin ), but I don't think it's very complicated to have an LS teamup for AV.

We had 1 speaker/coordinator from each shell talking mainly in the LS and 1 top coordinator for everything. People just had to behave for a while and it was no problem at all.

And since it was so successful, we doing more pops tonight.

[Muramasa]

I wouldn't be surprised if instead of somehow nerfing DRK or AV due to LS's zerging, that they make AV items r/ex when traded in. I'd rather have that than spend a lot of time trying to find a "traditional" way of fighting.

[Tubbers]

He's referring to the fact that three LSs teamed up and combined their zerg DRKs to alternate AV kills. An impressive display of cooperation, but sadly, not something that can be relied upon to prove his point in the general case. Teamups only happen when:

a) every LS can contribute roughly equally, both in terms of killing power and pop sets
b) the LSs in question don't violently hate each other
c) none of the LSs have a chance to kill on their own

Actually, the only thing that you need is (a)! Most of the HNM shells that have been around for a while hate each other to bits. I guarantee that you won't find anyone on Ragnarok in CG, EC, SF, NO, TC, whoeverelsethereis that will say, "I like <insertRivalLS>". Rivalry breeds hated, it's a fact. Despite this, every single one of those LS (Maybe not TC, I'm not sure) has approached each other about pooling resources and teaming up to take this stupid NM down. My LS has (EC) has 3 Krakens, 2 Ridill, ~2 BZ, ~2 Mkris DRKs with a lot more regular ones, it's probably possible for us to get ~6 more MKris and repeat Foreal's success, but I'd rather team up, pool resources and eliminate damage as a chance in winning the zerg, (by this I mean we're guaranteed to have the DPS to kill it, only lame 2hrs would make us lose) until we know we can do it ourselves, or until we know an alternative way to kill it.

Hi my name is Tubbers and I overuse parenthesis.



Edit: @ Jaryk, you want to see new AV items being worn? Look here. http://www.ffxiah.com/player.php?id=48653

[Aksannyi]

Hi my name is Tubbers and I overuse parenthesis.

First step is admitting you have a problem.

And I'm not entirely sure on this one, but I highly doubt a team up would ever happen between the major HNM shells on Hades. Perhaps between other shells. I can think of a few shells who might team up amongst each other, but I don't see any of the major shells on Hades working together.

I'd love to see them prove me wrong though.

[Zosi]

Actually, the only thing that you need is (a)! Most of the HNM shells that have been around for a while hate each other to bits. I guarantee that you won't find anyone on Ragnarok in CG, EC, SF, NO, TC, whoeverelsethereis that will say, "I like <insertRivalLS>". Rivalry breeds hated, it's a fact. Despite this, every single one of those LS (Maybe not TC, I'm not sure) has approached each other about pooling resources and teaming up to take this stupid NM down. My LS has (EC) has 3 Krakens, 2 Ridill, ~2 BZ, ~2 Mkris DRKs with a lot more regular ones, it's probably possible for us to get ~6 more MKris and repeat Foreal's success, but I'd rather team up, pool resources and eliminate damage as a chance in winning the zerg, (by this I mean we're guaranteed to have the DPS to kill it, only lame 2hrs would make us lose) until we know we can do it ourselves, or until we know an alternative way to kill it.

Hi my name is Tubbers and I overuse parenthesis.

Edit: @ Jaryk, you want to see new AV items being worn? Look here. http://www.ffxiah.com/player.php?id=48653

Enough incentive can overcome deep hatred between LSs, but it's pretty rare. Keep in mind that as time goes on and more LSs kill, the incentive decreases. Items become worth less and more common.

As for being able to do it yourself, that's precisely my point. As long as it's substantially easier to kill via a teamup, they'll happen. When it stops being easier, they'll stop. If you could sell, say, your LS's first sash or Mars's Ring and use the proceeds to buy enough KCs to make it safe and easy to kill future AVs, would you do it? Would you still team up with those LSs you hate? If you don't do that, do you think they wouldn't either?

The only thing that I could see preventing that would be if the price of K.clubs skyrocketed overnight to the point where they're literally more valuable than AV drops. Possible, but I haven't quite seen that happen yet.

[Ruiner]

You know what's funny about all this? The linkshells that would have the man power to kill AV "legit" are probably the same linkshells that have enough Kclubs to zerg him.

[ringthree]

Odin just proved that you don't need 5 Krakens in one linkshell to kill AV, so everyone complaining just lost their argument.

No, you just need 3 LS's with that many KC. That is a really poor argument. One of those KC's was borrowed from one of my LS members, but he isn't going to see any reward out of it, he just wanted to see it done. Once they sell enough of the AV drops, they will have enough KC's on their own and it won't happen again.

[Zosi]

You know what's funny about all this? The linkshells that would have the man power to kill AV "legit" are probably the same linkshells that have enough Kclubs to zerg him.

There's overlap, but the groups of "skilled LSs" and "LSs that can afford a half dozen K.clubs" aren't actually the same.

[Titanss]

So how much can a nigga buy a sash for these days? Ya I need a M-ring too so price on both .
PM

[Spira]

Tubbers knows what hes saying cos such a cooperation has already been planned between LSes for AV...

People may be rival LS, but it is just a game, and competition can still be healthy.
If both LS need each other, then the alliance is a win-win situation.
I look forward to the fight.

[Dowzer]

Instead of nerfing Souleater damage inflicted on AV, it'd be interesting if they weakened it's physical damage reduction instead, allowing contemporary melee burns...

[Ashira]

You know what's funny about all this? The linkshells that would have the man power to kill AV "legit" are probably the same linkshells that have enough Kclubs to zerg him.

Probably, except there's dick all for time to test much now, and still lack of motivation because SE refuses to give better fucking hints, and people don't much feel like going insane. Since a definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results and all.

[Yugl]

It seems most people are upset by the fact that Soul Club is currently the only known way to kill AV. In that case, it makes more sense to argue against SE for making AV's behavior encourage such a strategy rather than argue against the Soul Club method. If you are truly against Soul Club itself (And are just taking advantage of the recent events to vent your frustration) why not just ask SE to give you a buff that allows for the same damage output. It just seems ridiculous to "nerf" the benefits of a ~30-40mil gil item when you can ask SE to make one that gives you the same advantage. Then again, changing the monster's properties could also negate the advantages of Soul Club; after all, you can't Soul Club all NMs in the game.

[Ashira]

No, you just need 3 LS's with that many KC. That is a really poor argument. One of those KC's was borrowed from one of my LS members, but he isn't going to see any reward out of it, he just wanted to see it done. Once they sell enough of the AV drops, they will have enough KC's on their own and it won't happen again.

That's if that's what's done - a number of people want drops, and I think the mentality of most of our shells is items for members first... at least that's how it is in mine. And then if that provides the means within one LS.. and the confidence within that single LS to pull it off by themselves. The other thing is that on Odin, the zerg things never really caught on as much as on other servers. BBQ does zerg fights with *some* regularity, LB I don't really know, but it doesn't seem like it (outside when most of them are in Dynamis and do DL). It's not to say one shell doesn't have enough total to do it, but getting enough on all at once is a problem for all of us, since all shells span a number of time zones and schedules.

It's not to say any of us couldn't do them, but I don't think it's really any one shell's cup of tea either. And at this point, I'd say not only is it better to be safe than sorry, but this way, we can get as much as we can for each other and avoid bitching at each other fighting over the fucking ??? spawn and such.

[Zosi]

It seems most people are upset by the fact that Soul Club is currently the only known way to kill AV. In that case, it makes more sense to argue against SE for making AV's behavior encourage such a strategy rather than argue against the Soul Club method. If you are truly against Soul Club itself (And are just taking advantage of the recent events to vent your frustration) why not just ask SE to give you a buff that allows for the same damage output. It just seems ridiculous to "nerf" the benefits of a ~30-40mil gil item when you can ask SE to make one that gives you the same advantage.

AV aside... you're seriously suggesting that they should bring the other 19 jobs up to KC DRK levels, rather than just nerfing a clearly unintentional synergy between two things that aren't nearly as broken on their own?