Stat reduction on high lv gear

[rath]

However, an Emperor/Empress Hairpin is not mandatory for upcoming THFs and NINs. It's just not fair. And it doesn't stop at O-hat. Silk Headband +1 costs a paltry 25k, gives 10 Defense and 7 Evasion. Should someone with a Silk Headband +1 be entitled to 7 Evasion when capped at any level above 24 (while having some Defense, and not taking an HP penalty?) It's functionally similar, after all.

And besides that, you really expect them to go, slot by slot, piece by piece, subjectively deciding "Is X piece functionally similar enough to Y piece that we should make it arbitrarily behave like Y?"

.

Did SE not state evasion will be negated entirely upon syncing? Their expample shows it greyed out and lists it as such.

[Isiolia]

However, an Emperor/Empress Hairpin is not mandatory for upcoming THFs and NINs. It's just not fair. And it doesn't stop at O-hat. Silk Headband +1 costs a paltry 25k, gives 10 Defense and 7 Evasion. Should someone with a Silk Headband +1 be entitled to 7 Evasion when capped at any level above 24 (while having some Defense, and not taking an HP penalty?) It's functionally similar, after all.

Sure. Why not? It's already, at best, on par (given the tradeoffs) to the Emp Pin 30 levels prior. There are other lesser evasion items available closer to the level as well - an entire series of headbands, in fact.

The point is that you're not getting something impossible to obtain at that level, either in the bonus itself or in the quantity. All it's doing it making it more convenient to obtain it when you're being capped.

Were this an adjustment allowing gear to be used at any level, with reaching a given level "unlocking" the full stats, that would be different.

And besides that, you really expect them to go, slot by slot, piece by piece, subjectively deciding "Is X piece functionally similar enough to Y piece that we should make it arbitrarily behave like Y?"

Considering that this is apparently what they've done with other stats, sure, something like that. This is the argument given for why +10 stat pieces scale to the same as +5 stat pieces. Or why level 75 headgear gives full MP values at 58, supposedly because hairpins provide large MP gains there.

Following that logic, why wouldn't you get things scaled to match? I'm not saying a SH should offer 10 evasion at level 24, I'm saying an O. Hat should. Or something reasonably close anyway. Slot by slot basis, just like they're already utilizing.

You say it's not just about the e-peen gears but those are the only ones with stats worth crying over. Nobody should give a damn that they're missing 2 STR, 4 MND, 3 DEX, 5 VIT, 3 Attack, or whatever. At least, no one with a basic understanding of how stats work should.

In some cases it's a bit more. Like with the Kote example.

Secondly, it's not just epeen items per se. It's something that'd be relevant whenever you hit a major level for gear. Every time gear is replaced with something similar, it'd become a concern. Should you just stay with the low level stuff do better in syncs?
It could wind up influencing long term gear selection, and jacking prices up as a result.

It's not even that big of a bother to fetch your AF, seeing as it's storable. Dump 5 items into your mog house, retrieve AF from the NPC. Macros? We have more macro space than we even need. Copy-pasta your macro set and change the AF+1 to AF where needed and you're done. No need to rewrite your macros every time you sync to random-level-between-52-and-74.

It's workable, sure, never said it wasn't. The point is convenience.

[Raithen]

Considering that this is apparently what they've done with other stats, sure, something like that. This is the argument given for why +10 stat pieces scale to the same as +5 stat pieces. Or why level 75 headgear gives full MP values at 58, supposedly because hairpins provide large MP gains there.

Following that logic, why wouldn't you get things scaled to match? I'm not saying a SH should offer 10 evasion at level 24, I'm saying an O. Hat should. Or something reasonably close anyway. Slot by slot basis, just like they're already utilizing.

This is exactly what you're not understanding. SE did not arbitrarily go through piece by piece and decide that Evasion+10 on a head at 24 is ok for every job in the game who is level 70 and worked for an Optical Hat. SE put stat limitations on all stats on all gear slots for certain levels. It doesn't matter if a piece has 10 STR or 5 STR, if you're level 40 and it's a head gear, SE says 1 STR is what you get. It CAPS and does not SCALE. You want it to scale and that is inappropriate because it would be unfair to the person who is leveling the job at the correct level before the sync. Good low level gear is good for a reason.

Nobody gives a shit that you're upset that you don't get all your best gear during level sync. Level sync wasn't made with you in mind believe it or not. Level sync was made so that you wouldn't be forced to buy a whole bunch of shit, but obviously you feel your job cannot perform its basic functions without either 1) broken armor or 2) spending loads of money.

It doesn't matter that you with your optical hat and the level 24 with their emperor/empress hairpin both worked hard for your evasion+10 head, what matters is they're level 24 and 70 each for specific reasons. Not to mention SE has decided if you want evasion during level cap you must wear level-appropriate evasion gear. Perhaps if they do allow evasion to function in level cap, they might make it fit with the NQ headband series.

It doesn't really need to be said, but if you're so upset with how SE failed to please you with a system we didn't even need in the first place, just don't level sync or level cap yourself at all. Maybe we should be happy our merits still work to give us an advantage over all those silly noobs.

[rath]

Usually gear when you synced isn't that bad at all, when you compare it to the actual low lvl person in the group, but weapons suck lol. I dropped 20 damage/shot on rng using war+1 at lvl 15, compared to using a hunters bow. Ammo didn't seem to make any difference, cept acc on lower lvl ones, but bow did a lot.

[Isiolia]

This is exactly what you're not understanding. SE did not arbitrarily go through piece by piece and decide that Evasion+10 on a head at 24 is ok for every job in the game who is level 70 and worked for an Optical Hat. SE put stat limitations on all stats on all gear slots for certain levels. It doesn't matter if a piece has 10 STR or 5 STR, if you're level 40 and it's a head gear, SE says 1 STR is what you get. It CAPS and does not SCALE. You want it to scale and that is inappropriate because it would be unfair to the person who is leveling the job at the correct level before the sync. Good low level gear is good for a reason.

Other than the word, what you're saying is no different from what I did. You could say it that EVA "caps" at 10 for 24 and up just like stats "cap" at 2 or 3 depending on level. It's no different in the end result.

Furthermore, why do you assume I'm "upset"? I can't critique something without getting bent out of shape? I beg to differ.
You're right, I can just refuse to sync. Which I likely will, unless it's a really really good friend or something. My feeling is more that if the system can be improved to be more appealing, without breaking balance (which I don't think some of the things I've mentioned actually would), then why not?

[Doval]

Did SE not state evasion will be negated entirely upon syncing? Their expample shows it greyed out and lists it as such.

I know that, I'm going with Isiolia's examples for the sake of argument.

Sure. Why not? It's already, at best, on par (given the tradeoffs) to the Emp Pin 30 levels prior. There are other lesser evasion items available closer to the level as well - an entire series of headbands, in fact.

The point is that you're not getting something impossible to obtain at that level, either in the bonus itself or in the quantity. All it's doing it making it more convenient to obtain it when you're being capped.

Because - again - an Emperor's Hairpin is not easily obtainable. On the AH it's too expensive for just anyone to buy, you would have to be 30-35 to solo VE, the BCNM itself is Lv.30 and it's not a common drop. Whether it's impossible to obtain or not is irrelevant; it's not easy to obtain and the average Lv.24 THF will not have it. Because of that, you ARE getting a quantity advantage, because at Lv.24 no headband comes close to +7 Evasion. Dodge Headband (Lv.26) just gives 3 and Flax Headband (Lv.36) just gives 4.

That's the point you keep ignoring - the stat adjustments you're proposing would give a Sync'd player an obvious advantage over the average appropriate-level character, in some cases without having to put in nearly as much effort/gil as the lower level character would to get those stats. If your sync'd stats are better than most players', there's no reason to invite an appropriately-leveled player over a Lv.75.

Considering that this is apparently what they've done with other stats, sure, something like that. This is the argument given for why +10 stat pieces scale to the same as +5 stat pieces. Or why level 75 headgear gives full MP values at 58, supposedly because hairpins provide large MP gains there.

Following that logic, why wouldn't you get things scaled to match? I'm not saying a SH should offer 10 evasion at level 24, I'm saying an O. Hat should. Or something reasonably close anyway. Slot by slot basis, just like they're already utilizing.

Except that's not what they did for other stats. The way they implemented it, they had to go slot by slot and decide on hard caps for each applicable stat based on NQ craftable/CP gear. Once those caps were decided they could apply them to any piece of gear regardless of what it is. You're expecting them to look at a piece of armor, then take a look at every other piece of armor in the game to see if there's any close matches to it. Then repeat that tedious procedure and subjective decision-making for every piece of gear in the game, and make exceptions for all of them. All of that in addition to the original work they had to do of having to decide on universal caps for stats (for each job) because some pieces don't have any equivalents and thus you'll need the generic caps too. That's absurd.

And just to prove that what you're suggesting DOES involve subjective decision-making - At what point would O-Hat stop being an Emp Hairpin and become the Acc head piece that most people really use it for? Should O-Hat emulate Emp Hairpin below some level and give Acc and Evasion at higher levels?

An AF+1 to AF conversion in such a manner would be feasable but that's it.

Secondly, it's not just epeen items per se. It's something that'd be relevant whenever you hit a major level for gear. Every time gear is replaced with something similar, it'd become a concern. Should you just stay with the low level stuff do better in syncs?
It could wind up influencing long term gear selection, and jacking prices up as a result.

I don't follow. Epeen pieces are the only cases where you take notable stat losses (relative to the absolute maximum you could have, anyways; definitely not relative to what would be considered decent stats.) If a new piece becomes available your stats will upgrade accordingly under the current system so you lost me here.

It's workable, sure, never said it wasn't. The point is convenience.

The system is already convenient. Not breaking game balance is just as important.

[Isiolia]

That's the point you keep ignoring - the stat adjustments you're proposing would give a Sync'd player an obvious advantage over the average appropriate-level character, in some cases without having to put in nearly as much effort/gil as the lower level character would to get those stats. If your sync'd stats are better than most players', there's no reason to invite an appropriately-leveled player over a Lv.75.

I understand that side of it. My point is that a lot of the gear mentioned is simply a different effort.

I think the reverse of that is also, why would said level 75 player actually want to join your low level party? You can get nice results with an LS party or something, sure. You could do that already though. I mean pickup parties. There's no way I -want- to join a Garlaige pickup on a 75 job to begin with.
The potential is there, either way you slice it, for a 75 on a given job to completely eclipse a newer player. What if they do buy gear for it? Plus pre-capped skills, plus merits (some, like Katana merits, that aren't possible to have ahead of time), etc. Not to mention months or years of experience on the job.

So, to me, it doesn't add up to say that gear would turn the tide there.

Except that's not what they did for other stats. The way they implemented it, they had to go slot by slot and decide on hard caps for each applicable stat based on NQ craftable/CP gear. Once those caps were decided they could apply them to any piece of gear regardless of what it is.

I still don't see how this can't be applied on a wider scale. So they can decide that armor can only have +2 to stats in a given slot up to a point, but not set that Evasion on a headpiece can be up to x amount?

And just to prove that what you're suggesting DOES involve subjective decision-making - At what point would O-Hat stop being an Emp Hairpin and become the Acc head piece that most people really use it for? Should O-Hat emulate Emp Hairpin below some level and give Acc and Evasion at higher levels?

I would say something like, headpieces can provide up to 8 EVA 24-70 (scales it back a little, but not terribly so). Or even 25-70 if you want to make it per 5 levels. Get ACC/RAcc at 70, since really nothing gives that full time outside of DEX/AGI conversions prior to 65, and even then it's only a couple points.

It's not a piece by piece thing, it's still per slot, just a bit more inclusive.

I don't follow. Epeen pieces are the only cases where you take notable stat losses (relative to the absolute maximum you could have, anyways; definitely not relative to what would be considered decent stats.) If a new piece becomes available your stats will upgrade accordingly under the current system so you lost me here.

Within the line of thinking where, now, you may or may not actually be able to rely on wearing a given upgrade/sidegrade. Say, for example, that you're leveling WAR. You reach 69 and are faced with upgrading to a Hauberk, or staying with a Haubergeon. Even before, there was the logic that Haubergeon = more jobs wearable at lower level, so good to keep. Still, it's the same basic stats with fewer negatives.
Now, however, you could potentially get a lot of invites to sync back down to levels under 69. Despite that the offensive stats are the exact same as a Haubergeon, your Hauberk gets scaled/capped/whatever simply because you're sync'ed.

Sure, it's a relatively simple thing to avoid, but it's an example. The same thing happens anytime you're swapping out a significant piece now. Some would be only for a few level window (Jaridah -> SH -> Haub for example), but still there.

The system is already convenient. Not breaking game balance is just as important.

Giving better stats on some pieces wouldn't break balance, given that people can equip them anyway. If it's -really- to the benefit of someone (in terms of gaining XP/merits) to rebuy stuff, then they'll probably do it. If not, it's only helping people who actually need the sync'ed parties to progress by providing more willing people to sync with.

[Spider-Dan]

I think the reverse of that is also, why would said level 75 player actually want to join your low level party?

You seem to misunderstand the objective of Level Sync.

The purpose is not to disperse LV75 players to lowbie zones (or they would not have put in so many restrictions that force the designated sync target to gain exp). The purpose is to allow high-level players to join their newbie friends.

So the answer to the question, "why would a LV75 player join a synced party?" should be pretty obvious.

[Isiolia]

You seem to misunderstand the objective of Level Sync.

The purpose is not to disperse LV75 players to lowbie zones (or they would not have put in so many restrictions that force the designated sync target to gain exp). The purpose is to allow high-level players to join their newbie friends.

So the answer to the question, "why would a LV75 player join a synced party?" should be pretty obvious.

Which would make the argument that having fewer restrictions on capped gear wouldn't matter in terms of lower level players being snubbed in favor for high level sync'ed ones, right?
That's, in context, what I was referring to.

I mean, if you're inviting someone to sync, and they're coming 'cause they're your friend...you'd probably rather have your friend along than a random pickup person (assuming there even was one to invite).

If it's a random pickup invite (which have been happening often), then it's once again back to "why would they want to".

The logical reason that they implemented this on a grand scale -now-, versus back when they put in the mandragora hats is because of the difficulty in finding a party in low/mid levels (particularly).
The "with friends" thing makes for nice update notes, comics, and what have you...but I don't believe for a second that it's the only reason they implemented this.

[Karbuncle]

Which would make the argument that having fewer restrictions on capped gear wouldn't matter in terms of lower level players being snubbed in favor for high level sync'ed ones, right?
That's, in context, what I was referring to.

I mean, if you're inviting someone to sync, and they're coming 'cause they're your friend...you'd probably rather have your friend along than a random pickup person (assuming there even was one to invite).

If it's a random pickup invite (which have been happening often), then it's once again back to "why would they want to".

The logical reason that they implemented this on a grand scale -now-, versus back when they put in the mandragora hats is because of the difficulty in finding a party in low/mid levels (particularly).
The "with friends" thing makes for nice update notes, comics, and what have you...but I don't believe for a second that it's the only reason they implemented this.

"Why would they want to" isn't a fair question, seeing as how we have thousands and thousands of players who will all answer that question differently.

For instance, i would join that party probably because it could be fun, and if it sucked i'd just replace myself, the fact is this "Level Sync" doesn't have some secret meaning behind it that your looking for, it was implemented because SE sees that low level parties are to few and far between to get new players involved. Level Sync was introduced in hopes that high level players can now help their friends AND maybe some level low players without having to switch jobs and waste money and inventory space on gear.

There's no reason why you "would" do it outside of helping other people... I think i know what your trying to say in your arguments. i see that your saying level gear should sync better then it does now, at least fairly, right?

In your same post you mentioned lower level people inviting you randomly for Level Sync, Now imagine if your armor was on par stat wise with the lower level gear of that level range, you'd be getting alot more invites, because you'd be more likely to have better gear, and that level 13 WHM with no sub job would be left hanging, because his gear probably fails. The idea was that new players would not be overlooked when searching for members, so logically the synced gear would suffer to the point its on par with Crafted gear, not Rare and hard to obtain NM gear, despite the gear you have being rare and hard to obtain

This is my thoughts anyway, but its not a matter of "why would they join" really, because there is no real reason or incentive outside of breaking the "norm", trying to have some fun.

Also im not "flamming you", wanted to make that clear as you seem trigger happy

[Isiolia]

"Why would they want to" isn't a fair question, seeing as how we have thousands and thousands of players who will all answer that question differently.

For instance, i would join that party probably because it could be fun, and if it sucked i'd just replace myself, the fact is this "Level Sync" doesn't have some secret meaning behind it that your looking for, it was implemented because SE sees that low level parties are to few and far between to get new players involved. Level Sync was introduced in hopes that high level players can now help their friends AND maybe some level low players without having to switch jobs and waste money and inventory space on gear.

I agree, people would have varying reasons to join.

The reason I bring it up is because the arguments were focusing on why a party leader would want to invite a high level person to sync with them. Frankly, why wouldn't they?
It's a much better gamble to go with someone who has played the job for a while, has capped skills, merits, all spells already learned, etc than it is to go with a newer player to the job/game.

There's also the issue of needing more people for parties low level. To clarify what you were responding to, I don't think there's a secret purpose behind level sync that nobody is seeing. I think it's there for the reason you mentioned. What I was saying is that the "with friends" angle is being played up because it's better publicity. Same thing, different spin.

That's why I look at it from the angle of why the higher level people would want to join. It would be a given that a low level party would want and/or need someone to sync down to them.

There's no reason why you "would" do it outside of helping other people... I think i know what your trying to say in your arguments. i see that your saying level gear should sync better then it does now, at least fairly, right?

I think that there are ways that (some) gear could scale/cap/whatever to be better than it is now and still be fair, insofar as the system is "fair" as it is now.

Not everyone will only participate just to help out. For some jobs, that will probably be the case most of the time. For others, sync may wind up being a significant source of buffer/merits, and for them, having capped gear won't be as big a thing.

In your same post you mentioned lower level people inviting you randomly for Level Sync, Now imagine if your armor was on par stat wise with the lower level gear of that level range, you'd be getting alot more invites, because you'd be more likely to have better gear, and that level 13 WHM with no sub job would be left hanging, because his gear probably fails. The idea was that new players would not be overlooked when searching for members, so logically the synced gear would suffer to the point its on par with Crafted gear, not Rare and hard to obtain NM gear, despite the gear you have being rare and hard to obtain

This is my thoughts anyway, but its not a matter of "why would they join" really, because there is no real reason or incentive outside of breaking the "norm", trying to have some fun.

As I've said, I don't think that this hinges as much on gear as people are saying.

For sake of example, lets take a job that will likely be using and abusing level sync: PLD.
Very popular right up until merits where few parties actually want a tank. Not so much after that. Plenty needing buffers, etc.
In short, they'd probably actually be looking for a sync party because the chances of them seeing a 20k/hr merit party are slim.

If the benefit is there, they'll keep cap gear. Eventually, get used to that you can get yourself a great tank by jumping straight for experienced 75 PLDs that are more than happy to come get 8-10k/hr (or whatever).

Maybe a bit simplified, but is that especially hard to imagine?

Players will be overlooked simply due to the fact that level sync exists. For jobs/players where syncing benefits them personally, likely even moreso.

Gear capping, in turn, is an inconvenience primarily leveled on those who have less incentive to participate anyway. This is where it doesn't make sense to me. To an extent, it's adding insult to injury.


I understand the potential problem of snubbing low levels in favor of better geared higher level ones. I don't disagree that this is the case. However, to a large extent, such is the cost of doing business. The sync system itself introduced this downside, next to a number of upsides. It's going to happen anyway; there's no getting around it.

However, the primary purpose - to distribute people into parties across the entire level range - is served by larger participation from the densely populated endgame.
Having better sync'ed gear would likely encourage those on the fence about it, which in turn helps the lower level players by having more people that will take the cut in XP/hr to party with them.

I suppose it's just a gamble as to what would balance things better.

[Spider-Dan]

I mean, if you're inviting someone to sync, and they're coming 'cause they're your friend...you'd probably rather have your friend along than a random pickup person (assuming there even was one to invite).

Yes, but if synced 75s were superior to genuine lowbies, then people would send invites to random 75s over random genuine lowbies (when inviting pickup players). This is what gear scaling is designed to prevent.

If it's a random pickup invite (which have been happening often), then it's once again back to "why would they want to".

No, it's more like, "why would a low-level player want to invite a genuine lowbie instead of a synced 75?"

You are approaching the issue from the standpoint of attractiveness to 75s, which was never the stated (or even implied) goal. It seems fairly apparent that Squenix is more concerned about maintaining parity between synced 75s and actual low-level jobs.

[Karbuncle]

I had a post, But i think the guy above me explained it SOOOO much better, so i deleted it

[Ayvaen]

Another reason level syncing is good for parties even with members who might end up with gimped gear is the following:

A non-sync'd party made up of the following jobs/levels...
32brd, 33 RNG, 31 DRG, 32 PLD, 33WAR, 32 WHM
Is decent setup. If you picked the right location you could get pretty good XP/hour, but the 31 drg, 32 brd, 32 pld, and 32 WHM are receiving XP as if they were level 33 fighting the mob, with a penalty to their pDIF, and losing a % of XP for having a higher level in the party.

If you sync it to 31 and fight mobs appropriate for a level 31, then the physical damagers won't experience as large of a penalty and no one is losing a % of their XP. So it's actually good even for a low level party to sync up.

In reality I think the advantage of having all of your party members at the same level will balance out the loss of stats on capped gear as long as everyone in the party plays competently and uses food.

Level syncing by no means results in a gimped group as long as the entire group is competent otherwise.

[HadesBothari]

Another reason level syncing is good for parties even with members who might end up with gimped gear is the following:

A non-sync'd party made up of the following jobs/levels...
32brd, 33 RNG, 31 DRG, 32 PLD, 33WAR, 32 WHM

Absolutely no one refutes the usefulness of level sync. Esp. in situations like the above, sync is awesome beyond compare.

Gear sync on the other hand was just thrown together without real effort (Yes I said it). Infact, level syncing works very well for mages because they arent as dependent on gear sync. However, tanks and DDs are better off just staying away from level sync or carrying proper cap gear for every level they are asked to sync to.

The gear scales decently down till about level 50 where more gear options + af start becoming available. At this point, stat/secondary-stat on synced gear just doesnt match up for the most part.

[Clave]

I'm wondering whether DMG rating on weapons when over the cap is way gimped like gear is? I'd love to use my Amanomurakumo capped on Samurai but...... if there's better things D:

[Karbuncle]

I'm wondering whether DMG rating on weapons when over the cap is way gimped like gear is? I'd love to use my Amanomurakumo capped on Samurai but...... if there's better things D:

Its scaled down, but im sure it would be better then most GK at that level, you'd lose your stats, but the DMG/DELAY of it will still be superior, considering i don't think there are any GK with the delay of Amano (Aside from the one dropped from that Dahak)

[Isiolia]

Yes, but if synced 75s were superior to genuine lowbies, then people would send invites to random 75s over random genuine lowbies (when inviting pickup players). This is what gear scaling is designed to prevent.

Like I said above, I know that's an issue, and I realize that's the point. However, I just see a number of other reasons besides gear that it'd still be true. Plus, hey, there's nothing preventing someone from having the capped gear. It's just potentially costly to buy or annoying.

No, it's more like, "why would a low-level player want to invite a genuine lowbie instead of a synced 75?"

You are approaching the issue from the standpoint of attractiveness to 75s, which was never the stated (or even implied) goal. It seems fairly apparent that Squenix is more concerned about maintaining parity between synced 75s and actual low-level jobs.

Again, as I had posted right before your post - I'm going on the assumption that a low level person will always want the sync'ed person already.

The catch is that there won't always be that lowbie getting overlooked, and instead you have other lowbies depending on a 75 to join to get XP.


If they're already going to be superior (potentially anyway), already preferred, then what does scaling some gear better hurt?

[BRP]

If they're already going to be superior (potentially anyway), already preferred, then what does scaling some gear better hurt?

This is a really weak argument. Like wtf.

[Karbuncle]

This is a really weak argument. Like wtf.

Wh....what is your sig from, i laugh every time i see it