Stat reduction on high lv gear

[Jakson]

Another reason level syncing is good for parties even with members who might end up with gimped gear is the following:

A non-sync'd party made up of the following jobs/levels...
32brd, 33 RNG, 31 DRG, 32 PLD, 33WAR, 32 WHM
Is decent setup. If you picked the right location you could get pretty good XP/hour, but the 31 drg, 32 brd, 32 pld, and 32 WHM are receiving XP as if they were level 33 fighting the mob, with a penalty to their pDIF, and losing a % of XP for having a higher level in the party.

If you sync it to 31 and fight mobs appropriate for a level 31, then the physical damagers won't experience as large of a penalty and no one is losing a % of their XP. So it's actually good even for a low level party to sync up.

In reality I think the advantage of having all of your party members at the same level will balance out the loss of stats on capped gear as long as everyone in the party plays competently and uses food.

Level syncing by no means results in a gimped group as long as the entire group is competent otherwise.

Except when you're 70+ and everybody sync's down to 68-69 to kill imps and you see your fire bomblet, ohat, dusk gloves, and other millions of gil worth of stuff useless.

[Spider-Dan]

Like I said above, I know that's an issue, and I realize that's the point. However, I just see a number of other reasons besides gear that it'd still be true. Plus, hey, there's nothing preventing someone from having the capped gear. It's just potentially costly to buy or annoying.

Right. So you have players that are actually taking the time to buy level-appropriate gear, mule their existing gear (or w/e) and come properly geared up. This is an "acceptable loss," so to speak; these players are buying (or have already bought) gear just as a lowbie would, and so the low-level economy isn't going to be obsoleted.

But a LV75 isn't going to be better than a well-equipped lowbie by sheer virtue of being 75 and having endgame gear. Which is the point. If they want to perform well, they need to go out and buy level-appropriate gear... not merely show up and be a demigod.

Again, as I had posted right before your post - I'm going on the assumption that a low level person will always want the sync'ed person already.

Why would you search for a random, gear-scaled, level-synced 75 in your pickup party when it's entirely likely that they will perform the-same-or-worse than a random genuine lowbie?

This is the point of mediocre scaled gear.

If they're already going to be superior (potentially anyway), already preferred, then what does scaling some gear better hurt?

They won't be superior, so they shouldn't be preferred. The only reason they would is if they geared up like a genuine lowbie (with level-appropriate gear).

[Seraph]

Stats be damned. You know what's awesome? Not having to run through level capped zones naked. Level Sync changes win for that alone.

[Isiolia]

But a LV75 isn't going to be better than a well-equipped lowbie by sheer virtue of being 75 and having endgame gear. Which is the point. If they want to perform well, they need to go out and buy level-appropriate gear... not merely show up and be a demigod.

They'd still have to have decent gear...just, decent gear for -their- level, not whatever level they happen to get invited to. It'd apply to larger gaps pre-75 as well, not just 75s.

Why would you search for a random, gear-scaled, level-synced 75 in your pickup party when it's entirely likely that they will perform the-same-or-worse than a random genuine lowbie?

This is the point of mediocre scaled gear.

I've already stated why several times:

Experience on the job
(Potentially) merits
Capped skills
Complete spells list (mages n' such)

That sort of thing.

There's also the assumption that there's a lower level person on the job you're looking for available in the first place. If that were the case the majority of the time, level sync wouldn't have been put in.

They won't be superior, so they shouldn't be preferred. The only reason they would is if they geared up like a genuine lowbie (with level-appropriate gear).

You're assuming that a genuine lowbie actually knows how to play their job well, which may be the case, but more likely is not.
There's no guarantee that a 75 in a job is a master of it either, but the chances are far better that they're at least competent.

Generally speaking, people on their 4th, 5th, etc job to 75 are a tad better than those working on their first, right? Especially if they've got cross compatible skills/merits/etc, or sure, gear.
Level sync allows you to find those players every time if you so choose. Which is the better chance of having a 50 RDM with full Enfeebling merits...the level 50, or getting a level 75 to sync? Who is going to have a better handle on blink tanking, the 36 NIN that you -hope- has his Ni scroll ready, or a sync'ed 65 NIN? Which WAR is more likely to have Polearm capped for your Lesser Colibri party, the 55 or the 75?

It goes well beyond gear. If you don't think that party leaders would take that into consideration, why would they weigh gear more?

[layoneil]

why would they weigh gear more?

it's the only thing visible and quantifiable and players are vain like that.

[Spider-Dan]

They'd still have to have decent gear...just, decent gear for -their- level, not whatever level they happen to get invited to. It'd apply to larger gaps pre-75 as well, not just 75s.

I think we can safely say that the difference between "elite" LV75 gear that's been scaled to, say, LV30, and wearing the cheapest gear you can find (e.g. artifact) scaled to the same level is so small as to be inconsequential.

I've already stated why several times:

Experience on the job
(Potentially) merits
Capped skills
Complete spells list (mages n' such)

You can get all of these things (save "on the job experience") from a veteran player leveling a new job. And on the job experience would be more relevant if this game were actually complex; any person that's leveled a job to 75 should have a good enough grasp of how this game works to play a LV30 job competently.

But this is beside the point. The point is, Squenix does want to actively encourage synced, gear-scaled 75s to obsolete low-level players trying to actually raise their job levels. Forcing 75s to actually go out and buy level-appropriate gear (if they want to perform well) is a check intended to accomplish this.

Your argument seems to be, "Well, people will still pick synced 75s anyway for [x] reasons, so why not just let scaled gear be great, too?" This is not unlike saying, "Why bother locking the doors of your car when someone could just break the windows and get in anyway?" There are shades of grey, and while making scaled gear mediocre is not a magic bullet that solves every problem, solving some is better than solving none.

There's also the assumption that there's a lower level person on the job you're looking for available in the first place.

What are you getting at, here? A gear-scaled synced 75 is better than nothing as is (hell, a naked synced 75 is better than nothing), so if the leader's choice is between "mediocre scaled 75" and "wait in town," that's a perfectly acceptable scenario.

Generally speaking, people on their 4th, 5th, etc job to 75 are a tad better than those working on their first, right? Especially if they've got cross compatible skills/merits/etc, or sure, gear.
Level sync allows you to find those players every time if you so choose. Which is the better chance of having a 50 RDM with full Enfeebling merits...the level 50, or getting a level 75 to sync? Who is going to have a better handle on blink tanking, the 36 NIN that you -hope- has his Ni scroll ready, or a sync'ed 65 NIN? Which WAR is more likely to have Polearm capped for your Lesser Colibri party, the 55 or the 75?

So are you arguing that synced players should actually receive some extra penalty to balance it out, or what? You're sitting here listing all the advantages that synced 75s have over lowbies to prove the point that... scaled gear should be improved too?

[Isiolia]

I think we can safely say that the difference between "elite" LV75 gear that's been scaled to, say, LV30, and wearing the cheapest gear you can find (e.g. artifact) scaled to the same level is so small as to be inconsequential.

Depends on the stats you're looking at. People aren't only syncing to level 30. Could well be syncing to 60, when there's a good bit of decent gear available, and wearing the functional equivalent to full AF on many jobs would be pretty lame.

You can get all of these things (save "on the job experience," which I'll get to) from a veteran player leveling a new job. And on the job experience would be more relevant if this game were actually complex; any person that's leveled a job to 75 should have a good enough grasp of how this game works to play a LV30 job competently.

Yes, but the difference is that before you had a lot less reliability with it. For someone to have premerited a weapon, they would need to have leveled a job that also had that skill, if even possible. It'd still come down to happening to catch them when they were in your level range (if they weren't in a static anyway). Sync allows for a lot more reliability in inviting veteran players.
I agree, the game isn't exactly "hard" by most measures. However, it doesn't take a lot of forum browsing to find examples of where people could have done significantly better.

What are you getting at, here? A gear-scaled synced 75 is better than nothing as is (hell, a naked synced 75 is better than nothing), so if the leader's choice is between "mediocre scaled 75" and "wait in town," that's a perfectly acceptable scenario.

Unless of course the 75 says "no thanks" due to feeling that their gear scales unacceptably. Again, there are two parts to this, not just what the low level party leader wants.

So are you arguing that synced players should actually receive some extra penalty too balance it out, or what? You're sitting here listing all the advantages that synced 75s have over lowbies to prove the point... that scaled gear needs to be improved too?

More to prove the point that it wouldn't be a big change in terms of competition. It's an annoyance to higher level players, and will be the reason that some of them decline to fill out a party that needs them. Meanwhile people who stop and think will change their invite patterns anyway.

I think it'd be better to give 75s fewer reasons -not- to join a sync party rather than create one with capping gear too aggressively.

[Valkrish]

level sync was a good concept, on the playing field, its not so good.

ok we're all done here \(`A')b

[Almalexia]

Orochi Nodowa gives 1DEF and 5ATK at level 30. No regen, though.

[Spider-Dan]

Depends on the stats you're looking at. People aren't only syncing to level 30. Could well be syncing to 60, when there's a good bit of decent gear available, and wearing the functional equivalent to full AF on many jobs would be pretty lame.

At the risk of repeating myself:

Given that the most elite of LV75 gear will be scaled down to a level approximating that of NQ craftable gear, the difference in performance between scaled elite gear and [anything that is not underleveled garbage gear] will be minimal.

Since the mediocrity of scaled elite gear is itself the primary basis of your complaint, I don't see how you could dispute this fact.

Unless of course the 75 says "no thanks" due to feeling that their gear scales unacceptably. Again, there are two parts to this, not just what the low level party leader wants.

So basically, we're looking at:

a) LV75s turning down sync parties because their scaled gear is mediocre
vs.
b) the near-complete obsolescence of the low-level gear market, coupled with a dramatic decrease in invites for any person trying to raise a low-level job

A is not the bad option here.

It's an annoyance to higher level players, and will be the reason that some of them decline to fill out a party that needs them.

You keep saying this without any supporting evidence. As a high-level player, why is it annoying to me if the same gear I'm already wearing is slightly less effective? Don't I already have all the crazy advantages (skill, merits, etc.) that you just finished listing?

If someone wants to invite me with full knowledge of my scaled gear, why would I be the one to be annoyed?

[Isiolia]

Given that the most elite of LV75 gear will be scaled down to a level approximating that of NQ craftable gear, the difference in performance between scaled elite gear and [anything that is not underleveled garbage gear] will be minimal.

Since the mediocrity of scaled elite gear is itself the primary basis of your complaint, I don't see how you could dispute this fact.

Again. It depends on the level you're looking at. Focus on level 30, and that's one thing, focus on 60 or 65, and the field changes. You can get 10 Eva on an NQ crafted item at 65. O. Hat presumably still does absolutely nothing.

So basically, we're looking at:

a) LV75s turning down sync parties because their scaled gear is mediocre
vs.
b) the near-complete obsolescence of the low-level gear market, coupled with a dramatic decrease in invites for any person trying to raise a low-level job

A is not the bad option here.

It's only not a bad option if there's competition from a lower level of their job. The low level gear market wouldn't see a hit from how it was before because people leveling up a job that need the gear would still need to buy it, people who had leveled past it would still not.
The potential now is that people might buy low level gear they otherwise would not...but in turn they may forgo high level swaps that they otherwise wouldn't have thought twice about.

The actual way to prevent snubbing low level alternatives would be to slap an XP penalty on parties syncing from a wide enough range (or, conversely, an XP bonus for not). Then there'd be a basic reason why you'd want to avoid inviting a 75 to your level 45 party, but the option would be there if necessary.

You keep saying this without any supporting evidence. As a high-level player, why is it annoying to me if the same gear I'm already wearing is slightly less effective? Don't I already have all the crazy advantages (skill, merits, etc.) that you just finished listing?

If someone wants to invite me with full knowledge of my scaled gear, why would I be the one to be annoyed?

It may not be an annoyance to you, but it'd be an annoyance to me if I was actually trying to do decently. There are a number of annoyances with sync, and that's one of them.

[Spider-Dan]

Again. It depends on the level you're looking at. Focus on level 30, and that's one thing, focus on 60 or 65, and the field changes. You can get 10 Eva on an NQ crafted item at 65. O. Hat presumably still does absolutely nothing.

1) Evasion doesn't scale anyway, so that's a poor example.
2) Why are you comparing scaled AF (which wouldn't even be scaled at 60!) to NQ craftable gear, instead of scaled elite gear?

The point that I'm getting at is that if there's a 75 with scaled 75 gear, regardless of what that gear is like when unscaled, when it's scaled, it's going to be mediocre; the range of mediocrity between scaled elite 75 gear and scaled pedestrian gear (of any level, as long as it's being scaled) is never going to be significant.

And I daresay that for any LV60 job, full unscaled AF would be the-same-or-better than a full set of scaled 75 gear. If you're syncing to 60, there's really no reason to wear scaled 75 gear, unless you are one of the few jobs with completely worthless AF or you are exceptionally lazy/cheap.

It's only not a bad option if there's competition from a lower level of their job. The low level gear market wouldn't see a hit from how it was before because people leveling up a job that need the gear would still need to buy it, people who had leveled past it would still not.

This would only be true if all gear were job specific. There are several groups of jobs in this game (RNG/THF/COR/DNC, WAR/PLD/DRK/BST, mages, etc.) that can wear a hell of a lot of common gear. Level any one and you would be practically set for the others (save melee weapons, which you should never scale anyway).

The potential now is that people might buy low level gear they otherwise would not...but in turn they may forgo high level swaps that they otherwise wouldn't have thought twice about.

...until they got to high level?

[Isiolia]

1) Evasion doesn't scale anyway, so that's a poor example.
2) Why are you comparing scaled AF (which wouldn't even be scaled at 60!) to NQ craftable gear, instead of scaled elite gear?

1) Doesn't and shouldn't are different. I know it doesn't scale down. I think it should, as I've reiterated a number of times.
2) I've compared several examples, and AF hasn't been one of them outside of AF+1.

The point that I'm getting at is that if there's a 75 with scaled 75 gear, regardless of what that gear is like when unscaled, when it's scaled, it's going to be mediocre; the range of mediocrity between scaled elite 75 gear and scaled pedestrian gear (of any level, as long as it's being scaled) is never going to be significant.

And I daresay that for any LV60 job, full unscaled AF would be the-same-or-better than a full set of scaled 75 gear. If you're syncing to 60, there's really no reason to wear scaled 75 gear, unless you are one of the few jobs with completely worthless AF or you are exceptionally lazy/cheap.

Most jobs have select pieces of AF that are good, and the rest suck. The point being that while you can easily say that a couple points of STR or something is adequate for gear capping at level 30, it becomes a lot harder to call that "decent" in the upper mid levels.

This would only be true if all gear were job specific. There are several groups of jobs in this game (RNG/THF/COR/DNC, WAR/PLD/DRK/BST, mages, etc.) that can wear a hell of a lot of common gear. Level any one and you would be practically set for the others (save melee weapons, which you should never scale anyway).

There are still plenty of items that I both don't have a need or space for now that I used while I was leveling my 75s. My point isn't that you can't share gear, it's that your contention that not needing capped gear would kill the low level gear market is incorrect. That's how things have already been. You get a piece of gear, you use it, and you sell it when you upgrade. As I already said in a prior post, it's not like the system is letting you equip gear ahead of time.

...until they got to high level?

No, until they looked at it and pondered if they should keep the low level piece because it'd scale down better. Again, as I've mentioned, stuff like Hauberk from Haubergeon, or Fuma Sune-Ate from Fuma Kyahan. Primary stats are the same, but they're usable/unscaled from a lower level. If SE actually accounted for that, then it wouldn't matter which you owned. Done this way, it does. Meaning fewer low level pieces on the market, and higher prices for the low levels that have no other choice.

[Tarage]

...This thread is bad and you should feel bad.

[Snakegod]

Does anyone know if there is a chart that shows how much armor is reduced during level sync?