New WS Properties/Modifier/Damage Testing

[Tidane]

Were those all with full TP return? The last one looks like it may have missed a hit, if Ascetic's behaves like standard weaponskills. If they were all full TP returns, then there's definitely another factor involved to work out.

Don't the Scorps get stronger as the others die? I know with 6 up they hit for 20, but with 1 up it can hit for 200. I never paid attention to the melee damage, though.

[LD]

Were those all with full TP return? The last one looks like it may have missed a hit, if Ascetic's behaves like standard weaponskills. If they were all full TP returns, then there's definitely another factor involved to work out.

Reapz on page 8 had a similar result. It might just be the second hit missed in the 2nd pic and the first missed in the 3rd (also, the 1st pic might have been a lucky DA from Brutal), but it needs more testing.

They get more defensive, iirc, but not enough to make a move that's normally 800 at the beginning to drop to under 400 by the end.

[kwontess]

Well it was painful but I finished up some more Leaden Salute testing. I still don't have a torque, but I should still be able to find WSC based on how square rounds. First of all here is the data


AGI Damage
---------
74 516
75 518
76 520
77 526*
78 528
79 530
80 532
81 534
82 536
83 538
84 544*
85 546
86 548
87 554*
88 556
89 558
90 564*
91 566
92 568
93 570
94 576*
95 578
96 580
97 586*
98 588
99 590
100 592
101 594
102 596
103 598
104 604*


All of these were with coffinmaker and "bullets". I camped gelong staff but with no luck so I ended up using an earth staff + rajas + brutal earring + chiv chain which also gives 10.0 TP per hit. Every weapon skill was done at 100 TP. I have a similar list (although not as complete) for 200 TP. I took 2 hours off for lights/darksday so that would not have an impact.

I have gone through and put * by all the places where the damage jumps. The idea is that SE rounds down WSC*.83*AGI and then multiplies by fTP. In order for the fTP to cause a jump in the data WSC*.83*AGI has to raise by one. This should give some sort of estimate as to what WSC is. The problem is my jumps aren't uniform. Sometimes it takes 7 AGI and sometimes it takes 3.

As painful as it was I double checked about half of these numbers (and all the jumps, going one AGI below and one at the jump to make sure).

Every AGI we see causes a 2 damage increase excluding these jumps. These jumps are 4 damage fairly consistently indicating that fTP at 100 TP should be around 4. WSC leaves me baffled. I don't know how to explain why sometimes 3 AGI causes a jump and sometimes 6 doesn't. I was thinking maybe there is some very small mod that I have missed (still a possibility), but even if that were the case I don't see it giving me this type of data as the gear I used only had AGI, STR and DEX on it. STR and DEX I have added 10 of each while fixing AGI and seen no impact on damage.

Nonetheless there must be some very small mods in there of STR and DEX, I guess they are probably < 10%? I'm going to have to get some etudes to test this out.

So what I know so far is that fTP is around 4, and the formula uses 2(AGI-INT). The latter was verified through the use of burn. I checked with frost to ensure that the mobs AGI didn't matter (frost had no impact on damage, whereas burn gave me 2 damage return for every int lost). Of course the -2INT is approximate. It is theoretically possible that its 1.9something or 2.1something however considering the other formula for elemental weaponskills discovered this update this seems the most fitting model for the time being.

Edit: I just added 20 STR and 10 DEX and it did not increase my damage by even 1. This is more +STR and +DEX than I ever had on during any test.

[Vajra]

This was done after Nyzul (couldn't use mnk in nyzul cause i had to go sch), so White asked me to go show him the animation (had to walk far out cause idiots were fighting lesser colibri to break weapons LOL (feather tickle do you need it?)) anyways we found some bees, so i picked one, and poped off first ws (i was war sub this time), used same ws set up, still no dia II or bard song etc, and done two at 100% TP on SAME BEE.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a5/...TestsAgain.jpg

This has me to believe that maybe it REALLY DOES do less damage when the mobs at low HP, (I saw someone post this earlier in this thread so maybe it's true (Reapz or Almathia or something)). Remember both of the weaponskills in this screenshot here were done on the SAME MOB. Both had full TP return for a 1 hit weaponskill.

[Kirbyprime]

kwontess:

Did you happen to test that WS on high DEF mobs? Gods, Kings, etc?

[LD]

This was done after Nyzul (couldn't use mnk in nyzul cause i had to go sch), so White asked me to go show him the animation (had to walk far out cause idiots were fighting lesser colibri to break weapons LOL (feather tickle do you need it?)) anyways we found some bees, so i picked one, and poped off first ws (i was war sub this time), used same ws set up, still no dia II or bard song etc, and done two at 100% TP on SAME BEE.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a5/...TestsAgain.jpg

This has me to believe that maybe it REALLY DOES do less damage when the mobs at low HP, (I saw someone post this earlier in this thread so maybe it's true (Reapz or Almathia or something)). Remember both of the weaponskills in this screenshot here were done on the SAME MOB. Both had full TP return for a 1 hit weaponskill.

Thought so.

Almalexia's numbers suggest it isn't just based on HP% but actual HP (you can OHKO the lowbies barehanded, so all those were done at 100%). It's possible the more raw HP a mob has, the more Ascetic's Fury will do.

[Rena]

@Kwontess - looks like AGI_30 mod, 4.0 fTP, formula being (level+2+WSC)*fTP + (yourAGI-mobINT)*2, assuming target mobs have 6 INT (level -1 mobs outside of town?)

[Omnipotent]

@Kwontess - looks like AGI_30 mod, 4.0 fTP, formula being (level+2+WSC)*fTP + (yourAGI-mobINT)*2, assuming target mobs have 6 INT (level -1 mobs outside of town?)

Oh my gawd. WUT.

[VZX]

I tried this using all the elemental debuffs with 103-4TP for each WS, I was doing either 495 or 496 damage on Trueflight with only Crossbow+Ammo. However....on burn(-INT) my damage went up to 505.

:/
Interesting...

so your f(AGI-INT) didn't even cap on Lv -1 mob.
I assume you use Trueflight immediately after the burn is cast?

If it is , can I know what's the total INT of the burn caster?

[kwontess]

VZX,

If its like LS then AGI-INT doesn't cap. On level -1 mobs I've gone up to 120 AGI and I still get the return of 2 per AGI and then my WSC, this would give me a total of 114 difference in AGI-INT. I'm going to wager if it hasn't capped by 114 its probably not going to. When I did my burn test the caster had 75 int. I did it a couple times each time I got either +16 or +18 damage (I'm going to assume the discrepency is from the decay aspect of burn).

Rena,

There are a couple formulas that fit it decently. Using 4.0 we do need a mod of 30% AGI. The problem is I'm off by several damage using that formula. It would be nice and clean, but my 81,82,83,85,86,89,93,101,102,103 AGI damages would be off each by 4 damage.

***EDIT*** This is not the case, I was not rounding the second time within the mods. The formula is 100% accurate.

Once we have the right formula it really should be exact. I mean I suppose for all intents and purposes this formula is "good enough", but I its a little bothersome that we're overestimating damage by 4 about 1/3 of the time. Still I think we're much closer. It just has a huge fTP and this crazy -int business.

***EDIT*** I was rounding 1 too few times. Rena's suggestion works perfectly.

Presuming this is the formula (or assuming its roughly correct) we can figure out the TP mod as well at 200 TP and 300 TP. My data for 200 TP is

AGI-Damage
74-539
77-550
78-552
79-554

There were some more but I can't seem to find them at the moment. This would indicate though that fTP at 200 is 4.25. Interestingly enough if you plug in callisto's numbers you get exactly the right thing at 200 TP (wish I had known they were using martial from the beginning, I tried soo hard to make sense of those numbers).

2*(64-6)+[4.25(77+[64*.83*.3])] = 507
and
2*(64-6)+[4.35(77+[64*.83*.3])] = 516

which is dead on.

I just did a quick test at 300 TP with 77 AGI on the bunnies. I got 598 damage. I choose 77 AGI because (74+2+[77*.83*.3]) = 96 which is nice and divisble making it more likely to get large precision in the fraction. It appears that is unnecessary though as it gives a nice round 4.75 as the fTP.

I think I really like this formula. Outside of occassionally being off by 4 (maybe SE is doing some sort of funny internal rounding) every now and then the damage it predicts is incredibly accurate. So I guess I will concede the formula should be

2*(AGI-INT)+[fTP*(75+2+[.83*[.3*AGI]])]

Where fTP@100 = 4.0, fTP@200 = 4.25 and fTP@300 = 4.75

Where INT is the mobs INT.

***EDIT*** Added the extra set of brackets to make the formula 100% correct.

These numbers are so damn clean and so accurate its hard to imagine this is not correct. I apologize for being so stubborn to accept it fitting into a standard type formula. The INT issues were driving me nuts. I still can't explain being off by 4 occassionally, I was trying to get something so exact and when I was off by a few I was thinking my formula must be entirely wrong. Thank you everyone so much for your help and input! Sorry I didn't get those posted earlier, as soon as I finished recording my data earlier I headed out for the night (burn after reading is hillarious).

***EDIT*** The numbers are exact, I was just not rounding correctly. I suppose I should have paid closer attention to where the floors are applied.


Kirbyprime,

I don't do sky, kings, etc. I do einherjar. I tried it in there and it sucked. I got it off on some leeches and the tier II dragon boss. Not an ideal subject, but double dark weather on darksday and it was still over 3/4 resisted.

I tried it in Nyzul Isle. On those mobs it was hitting around 450-550 (except on stupid undead floors). On flan I was consistently breaking 700 with their spikes up. On the floor 20 boss (turtle if I remember correctly) it did high 300s?

Outside of flan with spikes on I haven't seen it outperform detonator. Its pretty much always 200-600 less damage and it resists probably more than detonator misses.

I don't have a novio and I'm not using a dark staff on cor (not worth it for an extra 50-60 damage).

I really wanted to like this and when my first one I shot off out in saruta did 600+ I was somewhat excited about the potential, but the -int penalty is just so devastating.

I mean lets look at the formula that more or less matches. Lets say its a higher level mob with 50 int? That doesn't sound too unreasonable. I'll give myself 115 AGI (I'm tarutaru). Then the base damage at 100 TP is roughly

2*(115-50)+4*(77+[.83*.3*115]) = 550

With novio, moldavite and denali pants we have a MAB of 15 so thats 632 damage assuming no resist. I have a feeling for an HNM 50 int is probably a little bit low and just screwing off on nyzul there are occassional resists even on mobs not strong to dark that are EP-DC. I haven't tested it in a merit pt, but it hasn't been exciting yet.

[VZX]

Looks like Leaden Salute and Trueflight share the same formula. well nvm it. it's not the same.

Now the question for Trueflight is how useful it can be?
Besides there are very limited selection to MAB gear for RNG, I think when you want to pick magic damage WS vs physical damage WS, you want to consider magic accuracy somewhere. Unless, Trueflight has some innate macc within.

[Almalexia]

If Ascetic varies with current mob HP, I certainly didn't notice it on Nihhus in Einherjar. MNK/WAR, double Minuet, Berserk and Footwork ATK bonus got me between 470-512 using a STR/ACC build. I couldn't compare to DK during that fight since I DA'd every kick for 1000 damage...

EDIT: Oh, I have found a use for this WS.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g6...913_010800.jpg

[nivlakian]

(I'm going to assume the discrepency is from the decay aspect of burn).

There is no decay aspect to burn (and other elemental enfeebles).

[kwontess]

Hmm. I had thought it had. Thats good to know, thanks for correcting me. I guess that puts it off by 2 damage sometimes. Although this could also be a variance of 1 int since the mobs have a 3 level range (I think they were 8-10).

[Hyan]

Does ascetic's fury really do well against chariots or was it a joke? D:

[Vail]

Does ascetic's fury really do well against chariots or was it a joke? D:

it turned the monster black from animation hue/color changes during equipchanging

[Jiyo]

:/
Interesting...

so your f(AGI-INT) didn't even cap on Lv -1 mob.
I assume you use Trueflight immediately after the burn is cast?

If it is , can I know what's the total INT of the burn caster?

Yes, I would use TF right after the spell landed. The blm had 76 INT only.

I tried TF later last night in Dynamis-Xarca. My max was about 300~ on NQ demons. I wasn't in dynamis long since I had to leave early, but I did at least 10-15 ws's before I left, so either they were all at least half resisted or my cap was 300~. I used Apollo's Staff, 70+61 AGI and +12 MAB during TF. I did get some lower numbers, 140ish, 220ish, etc, I had no M.ACC gear in during WS either.

Dynamis Xarca probably wasn't the best place to test TF, as I was very disappointed in its damage. I was hoping this could be something to use on Wyrms/Omega+Ultima/HighDefMobs/Etc... But so far it's looking like it'll be a "once in a while ws" for gun/crossbow users rather than something to build a set around.

[Lordwafik]

Woohoo. Did 250 points with SCH staff to help test properties, and then when I checked my staff, saw no WS. Checked my log. No quest yet >________________> Woops!

[Rena]

Kwontess, looking at your calculations, you're not calculating WSC properly. The proper calculation would be floor(0.83*floor(0.3*AGI)), rather than 0.3*0.83*AGI or AGI*83*0.3. Using the numbers you listed previously for 74-104 AGI, they fit perfectly for a AGI_30 mod, and the damage numbers match them just as well. For the numbers listed for 200 and 300 TP, 4.25 and 4.75 seem to be the correct fTP values as well.

[Jkun]

Woohoo. Did 250 points with SCH staff to help test properties, and then when I checked my staff, saw no WS. Checked my log. No quest yet >________________> Woops!

Epic fail. You deserve a medal!