New WS Properties/Modifier/Damage Testing

[hexagram23]

I got another question for you math-inclined people.

This was posted over at Alla/KI in response to the info I posted here:

Insurgency has .5 fTP at 100TP.
That means the first hit is half as strong as the others.

Average damage of the 4-hit Insurgencies in that screenshot: 1124.
Estimation of Insurgency where the first hit misses: 3*1124/3.5=963.
That still ~80 lower than the average of your 2 3-hit Insurgencies, but close enough considering the small data.

That sort of confuses me because it seems like this person is suggesting that the first hit of Insurgency does less damage than the other three hits....I thought people figured out the mods of a WS by landing the first hit on Level 0-1 mobs? Also, I thought the first hit was typically the most important as far as for purposes of discovering damage.

Guillotine has higher mods than Insurgency and it doesn't do almost the same damage at 3 TP as it does at 20 TP.

[Kirschy]

For Insurgency, the first hit can't critical. Lots of people have tried to make it crit, and it doesn't. It seems unlikely that the rest of the hits will. It also seems unlikely with the rare rate of damage spike that criticals are the reason. WS like Rampage/Jin/Raging Rush have criticals that take place much more often.

The reason you don't notice much of a change in damage with the first hit missing is because the ftp is so low. The first hit is a little more than 1/2 the damage of a normal swing, and about 1/2 the damage of the another hit in the WS.

[Kirschy]

I got another question for you math-inclined people.

This was posted over at Alla/KI in response to the info I posted here:



That sort of confuses me because it seems like this person is suggesting that the first hit of Insurgency does less damage than the other three hits....I thought people figured out the mods of a WS by landing the first hit on Level 0-1 mobs? Also, I thought the first hit was typically the most important as far as for purposes of discovering damage.

Guillotine has higher mods than Insurgency and it doesn't do almost the same damage at 3 TP as it does at 20 TP.

All of that appears to be right. Guillotine's ftp is about .875, so it's first hit does less than the rest of the WS too. Insurgencys .5 ftp applies to the first hit, and makes it do 1/2 damage. After figuring out the mods, you can work backwards to deduce the ftp. You can also use the gorget to test if your ftp is correct.

The reason the first hit is so important in figuring out the modifiers is because it's limited to only 1 hit. This makes changes in the base damage much more apparant. Since we have a model for damage calculations, we make changes to our stats and ftp, measure the changes and see what values make the formula correct.

[Yugl]

Huh? I don't understand. The WS isn't labeled as critical damage, but if it does crit damage anyway....are you saying one of the last 3 hits was a crit that made up for the loss of the first hit?

I guess that's possible....maybe....but on 3-4 WSs I missed the first hit and Insurgency never did less than 1k. So that is sort of a big coincidence that the crits landed when I happened to miss the first hit.

Also, if the WS does more or less the same damage with/without the first hit then I don't know how useful the "20% STR/INT" info is.

What I meant to suggest was that Insurgency might give higher than usual critical hit DMG (Meaning if you usually get ~200 extra DMG from a critical hit, Insurgency could give ~500DMG). However, based on Kirschy's post, that doesn't seem possible.

[hexagram23]

I really don't know what to think of Insurgency. I've only had it 3 days so I haven't been able to test it as much as I'd like, but so far the damage is all over the place. Sometimes it seems to do Guillotine numbers, other times it seems to do slightly below that.

Haven't seen any damage spikes yet. Hopefully at Fan Fest or in an interview somebody asks what's up with Insurgency, King's Justice, and a couple other new WSs because nobody has any idea why the damage on them is so uneven. The more time that passes the less likely it is they'll be figured out too.

Or at the very least if the new WSs are bugged and aren't supposed to do what they've been doing, somebody will ask SE about them and it'll get resolved because it's maddening running all sorts of tests and still not understanding the WSs.

[Not Kuno]

I seem to do fine with Insurgency, generally averages about the same/higher then Guillo. Been using it for quite a bit and havn't seen any really crazy spikes yet.

[Callisto]

From what I've seen the damage is close enough to Guillo to warrant using it for the Fusion property alone. I think it's a pretty sweet WS even if it is a bit confusing.

[Jkun]

I agree, and I think I already mentioned my opinions on it.

Damage aside (Trust me I've seen some shitty Guillos in my life) I love being able to make light without needing a GSword or being able to light/fusion on dark based mobs instead of darkness. It really is a treat, and the fact it does almost the same if not higher damage than Guillo makes me use it a LOT more often.

[Ramses]

I must be missing something. I've had insurgency since a few hours after it was put in game and it has been nowhere near guillotine for me. With ws gear, guillotine is almost always 200-400 more damage than insurgency. I couldn't care less about light since I can use GS and yet again use a better ws than insurgency to make light. It was fun having a new ws with new animation for about a day, but really insurgency just blows.

[Fwahm]

Insurgency makes Light with different weapon skills than Spinning Slash and Ground Strike though, and usually does more damage than non SA Spinning Slash on mobs that aren't retardedly defensive, like Genbu.

Are you using your Guillotine WS gear for Insurgency? It takes a different WS gorget as well.

[Ramses]

Insurgency makes Light with different weapon skills than Spinning Slash and Ground Strike though, and usually does more damage than non SA Spinning Slash on mobs that aren't retardedly defensive, like Genbu.

Are you using your Guillotine WS gear for Insurgency? It takes a different WS gorget as well.

I use light gorget for insurgency, which does add a lot, but still doesn't approach guillotine on average. Sure, you can make light a few new ways, but it's just disappointing that that is all there is to gain from insurgency. I think people are really just grasping to find a good reason to use a shiny new ws more often and I can understand that. Realistically and sadly though, insurgency is quite disappointing.

[Jkun]

I use light gorget for insurgency, which does add a lot, but still doesn't approach guillotine on average. Sure, you can make light a few new ways, but it's just disappointing that that is all there is to gain from insurgency. I think people are really just grasping to find a good reason to use a shiny new ws more often and I can understand that. Realistically and sadly though, insurgency is quite disappointing.

Well that's just your opinion, man. It's been said many times it can do higher damage than Guillo ocassionally, just because yours hasn't or doesn't, doesn't mean it's disappointing for everyone else. We just don't know how or why it does it so randomly yet. The mods are nicer than dumb shit like MND too, so only time will tell where it's place is when it's ranked against other WSs.

[SamanosukeShiva]

anyone tested the BLM WS yet? INT mod, and +dmg with +MaB should be hueg dmg if WS in nuking gear >.>

[Fwahm]

Strangely, at tonight's Proto-Ultima, Insurgency was consistently out damaging Guillotine by a massive amount.

/sam, no bard, no food, Guillotine was doing about 100 every time, while Insurgency was doing 250 every time, with my one 300 TP one doing 350.

[Ophannus]

maybe its one of those WS that has an attack modifier like steel cyclone,dragon kick,ground strike,spinning slash,retribution,empyrial arrow.

[hexagram23]

Thanks for the Insurgency info guys, I feel better now. I'm not going to stop using it or anything crazy like that but it's just frustrating knowing so little about it.

Flame Gorget would work with it right? Also, could you guys post your WS gear for Insurgency? I'm just curious what set ups are getting what results, because obviously not everyone is happy with the new WS.

[Acorn]

I must be missing something. I've had insurgency since a few hours after it was put in game and it has been nowhere near guillotine for me. With ws gear, guillotine is almost always 200-400 more damage than insurgency. I couldn't care less about light since I can use GS and yet again use a better ws than insurgency to make light. It was fun having a new ws with new animation for about a day, but really insurgency just blows.

THIS, plus 100000000000 bonus points for knowing it is "couldn't care less".

Ramses hit the nail directly on the head when he said that it is a new WS, people want it to be super special, and sadly it isn't.

Insurgency is nothing more than a gimp guillotine that makes light. I have probably used it about 300 times and I have never seen one of these mysterious "damage spikes".

It does pretty reliable damage (consistently less than guillotine) and it is good for making light. Outside of SCing, you are better off using Guillotine. Period.

inb4 people who don't have insurgency flame me for pointing out something that is blatantly obvious if you have ever tried it

[miokomioko]

Big points for completely disregarding the posts from resident DRKs reporting it doing same and/or slightly better dmg.

[LD]

Yes, obviously doing comparable damage to guillo was all in their minds.

[Malacite]

Doesn't anyone else think that this is entirely intentional on SE's part to make most of these new WS suck without the aftermath effect?

I mean yeah, it does blow that some of them like Insurgency aren't amazing without it and that much better with it, but it makes sense I suppose from a balance stand point. I also think SE did it to encourage people to get the new Mythic Weapons. Really sucks for Insurgency though since Liberator is garbage compared to Apocalypse. I'll take my 10 haste and 50% HP Drain from Catastrophe kthxbai.

At least some of them (Rana, Drakesbane, Atonement) are pretty damned good on their own.