The new Samurai: Tachi:Rana and storetp setup - gathering information

[FailureMidgard]

Well, I have posted three times saying that I think that Hagun was still going to be better, with explanation. That is why I was wondering if you didn't understand.

Uhhh, in another thread? 'cause you definitely didn't say it until "I think you are a little confused. I am not advocating Pachi 5-hit, I am saying it still probably won't match Hagun 6-hit." which is when this argument began...

Before that you said "I don't think this is going to be as clear cut as some people think." which perhaps to you means Hagun is better, but doesn't really read that way...

And then made a post starting with "That kind of defeats the purpose of the proposition." which really, the point of all of my posts is the proposition is most likely a useless one. So yes, my purpose was to shoot down the proposition, which you didn't seem to get.

[ringthree]

Uhhh, in another thread? 'cause you definitely didn't say it until "I think you are a little confused. I am not advocating Pachi 5-hit, I am saying it still probably won't match Hagun 6-hit." which is when this argument began...

Before that you said "I don't think this is going to be as clear cut as some people think." which perhaps to you means Hagun is better, but doesn't really read that way...

And then made a post starting with "That kind of defeats the purpose of the proposition." which really, the point of all of my posts is the proposition is most likely a useless one. So yes, my purpose was to shoot down the proposition, which you didn't seem to get.

I think you are just missing the context of my comment. I suppose if you look at the sentences alone and not as a paragraph you might not see the context, but my very first post was challenging the notion that Pachi would be able to beat Hagun. I gave reasoning as to why Pachi wouldn't be much faster at all than Hagun and would have less DoT. I am sorry if you found my comments too subtle. In the end, we agree.

[kakashisan]

300% TP --> sekkakoni - tachi : Rana --> 200% tachi : gekko is the only profits from rana for self SC darkness. I will personnaly use rana only for that. So Hagun is still the best dmg weapon. doesn't matter to get a 5 hit build if ws land for 500 dmg at 100%

[Drex]

5-hit pachipachio comes up pretty short compared to 6-hit hagun, I've tried both on merit level mobs and posted my results in a thread not to long ago. The -6 acc isn't a big deal at bird camp (which is where I usually merit) because I still had capped accuracy there using meat. At mamool camp I could see it being a big hit though. I didn't get to test because my one merit party there had a cor doing hunter's roll, but I imagine it would be rough using a -6 acc GK there.

That delay is killer too. It's a blessing and a curse - even with haste, hasso, and double march, I can eyeball the difference in my swing speed.

Either way, I don't need tachi: rana unlocked to tell you that pachipachio rana won't beat hagun YGK on anything that matters. Sekka darkness with pachipachio won't beat sekka darkness with hagun. Hagun still reigns, until SE adds a new GK with TP bonus, higher base damage, and cool stats.

[FailureMidgard]

5-hit pachipachio comes up pretty short compared to 6-hit hagun, I've tried both on merit level mobs and posted my results in a thread not to long ago. The -6 acc isn't a big deal at bird camp (which is where I usually merit) because I still had capped accuracy there using meat. At mamool camp I could see it being a big hit though. I didn't get to test because my one merit party there had a cor doing hunter's roll, but I imagine it would be rough using a -6 acc GK there.

That delay is killer too. It's a blessing and a curse - even with haste, hasso, and double march, I can eyeball the difference in my swing speed.

Either way, I don't need tachi: rana unlocked to tell you that pachipachio rana won't beat hagun YGK on anything that matters. Sekka darkness with pachipachio won't beat sekka darkness with hagun. Hagun still reigns, until SE adds a new GK with TP bonus, higher base damage, and cool stats.

Did you have madrigal? What is your gear? 6 accuracy should have an effect. If not, you are TPing with too much accuracy anyway ;p

[Amele]

420x6=2520
450x5=2250

Hagun is still faster...
Hacchonenbutsu Dangozashi 7hit is virtually the same time to WS as Hagun, but then you're giving up base damage also (although gaining some DoT...)

ah, and there was my mistake. I did true hit count and not post ws. (where with the typical 46% haste you would expect at the tier it might matter, the difference is ~130)

I can't see haccho dango doing it.

[Amele]

300% TP --> sekkakoni - tachi : Rana --> 200% tachi : gekko is the only profits from rana for self SC darkness. I will personnaly use rana only for that. So Hagun is still the best dmg weapon. doesn't matter to get a 5 hit build if ws land for 500 dmg at 100%

you underestimate the value of stats other than TP bonus. but it doesn't make your general argument inaccurate.


hagun has a 20% ws bonus over a D75 weapon.

likewise, a D83 weapon has a 10% ws bonus over a D75 weapon.

so the gap isn't 20%. it's about 10%. edit: which is to say, if you're doing 500 without hagun, you're only going to be doing like 540 with it.

double edit: in case it wasn't clear, I'm discussing onimaru

[eva00r]

-Testing Pachi vs Hagun on Y/G/K before patch-
This tester doesn't have Usu body to fully maximize Pachi's potential.

I've been playing with and parsing mine against hagun for a while now, and I'm no math pro but I'll do my best to answer.

Hagun 6-hit outparses pachi 5-hit, albeit not by a lot.

I parsed out about +120 WS damage/ws on hagun (818.4) over pachi (698.0), and pachi (97.9) beat hagun (87.08) by 10 damage per melee hit (all on greater colibri).

I'm only so-so on math so I don't really want to delve into it too much, but the problem arises from adding meditate into the works, since meditate strongly favors hagun over pachi due to the free WS damage. Each meditate gives hagun +120 damage, and if you have AF head and AF2 hands, it's another half a WS, or +60 more damage over pachi. Also, hagun has the delay advantage, so while it only takes 5 hits for pachi to get 100 tp, 6 hits from hagun comes pretty close in real-time.

I also give up dusk gloves (3% haste) to maintain 5 hit with hachiman kote because I don't have usu body.

I did make an alla post hoping for some math on 5 hit pachi vs. 6 hit hagun, and you can see it here. Milich had some good info to offer, and it looked like solid math to me (but like I said, I'm no math genius).

tl;dr - getting 20 tp/hit is very fun. As far as my gear goes (usu feet but no body), hagun wins by a little bit, and pachi falls somewhere below hagun, but above soboro, ushi, onimaru, etc. for meritting. If I had an usu body (and could therefore 5-hit in dusk gloves), the results might be different, but I doubt it.

Either way, at least it looks cool.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...803_214811.png

Fact
- Pachi DEAL MORE DOT DAMAGE vs Hagun. (~10 damage per swing, only 3% less in accuracy)
- Pachi can WS every 1920 delay, Hagun can every 2250 delay.
- Best Pachi setup doesn't really need to sacrifice Haste
(SAM/DRG can also self-sc with Pachi when your Meditate and Jump is up.) Irrelevant

Best Pachi Build
25 (SAM)
10 (Merits)
2 (Pachipachio)
5 (Rajas Ring)
5 (Askar Body) / 6 (Usukane Haramaki) / 7 (Aurum Cuirass)
1 (Brutal Earring)
7 (Usukane Sune-ate)

55-57 Store TP

Conclusion
IF Pachi's Rana can deal EQUAL damage to Hagun's Anything, Pachi will win. However, we still need a tester who has both Pachi/Hagun and an access to Tachi:Rana to do some merits. Dishing out at least a hundred WS and tell us.

Yes, but this proposition is quite flawed at the moment:
1. Pachi is a pretty decent loss of DoT (and the accuracy loss is a loss in WS speed as well). You lose attack even with your proposed setup. You can't ignore this.
2. All Pachi/Rana testing I've seen so far is on EPs w/ 3 hits landing in WS gear. I would bet quite a bit that Rana does -not- have the inherent accuracy bonus that YGK have. What's this mean? When you fight a real enemy, you don't get to use your full WS gear, but instead get to load on accuracy. This will lower your damage #s more relative to Y/G/K.
3. The Pachi/Rana #s I've seen still have it ~100ish behind Hagun YGK. This is -not- close enough to even equal Hagun in overall WS damage, much less be enough to overcome the DoT gap (and see point 2).
4. For optimal damage now, even for a Hagun, it seems worth saving to 200tp every 5minutes to Sekkanoki Rana>Gekko. Pachi loses some more damage here (not a lot, but it adds up).
5. I'm sure there's more, but this is enough for now!

1) proved wrong with drex's solid information
2) yes agree
3) not enough information to conclude this yet, we need 100+ ws data on at least merit mob.
4) yes agree, but Pachi can dish out 6 WSs while Hagun can only 5 in any mean time.

[Tubbers]

Fact
- Pachi DEAL MORE DOT DAMAGE vs Hagun. (~10 damage per swing, only 3% less in accuracy)
- Pachi can WS every 1920 delay, Hagun can every 2250 delay.
- Best Pachi setup doesn't really need to sacrifice Haste
(SAM/DRG can also self-sc with Pachi when your Meditate and Jump is up.) Irrelevant

*Disclaimer I am very, very tired, I may have borked up the math, but let me try to show you that your "fact" is not always true. I'm going to assume that the ~10 damage difference between the two is valid enough at high attack levels common to merit PTs that it will not vary much.

Let's assume that the two have equal haste:

Pachi: 480* 4 = 1920 / 60 = 32 seconds for >100% TP
Hagun: 450 * 5 = 2250 / 60 = 37.5 seconds for >100% TP
Delay Difference = 30, damage difference ~=10 (and -6 acc, which plays a role).

Hagun Damage is X, Pachi Damage is X+10
100% TP Delay difference = 330
So in the same amount of time, Pachi will do 4.6875(X+10) and Hagun will do 5(X)
Algebra happens
Pachi and Hagun DoT are equal when X = 150.

Assuming 100% accuracy, we get the following.
If Hagun's average hit is below 150 damage, Pachi DoT is better.
If Hagun's average hit is above 150 damage, Hagun DoT is better.

150 is a rather high, but not completely unreasonable estimate of hit damage on mobs like Colibri (remember crits also count). I would say in this scenario that the DoT between the two weapons is close enough to not matter very much. Remember also to factor in that accuracy is not 100%, and that using the Pachi will have a parse-able noticeable affect on DoT.

Someone should check my math, but based on this you cannot say that one DoT is strictly better than the other (which is what you are implying)

[Amele]

maths

whole thing is wrong.

the higher your attack the more difference a high D makes.

so at larger values, the 'bonus' to damage from pachi's higher D will be larger proportionally. (this is suppressed somewhat by the fstr term, but if pachi wins at a lower attack value, all other things being equal, it will win at a higher attack value by a larger raw margin (but the same ratio).

edit: the issue isn't the attack; it's the accuracy. at some acc ranges, -6 acc may overcome the damage bonus.

[eva00r]

*Disclaimer I am very, very tired, I may have borked up the math, but let me try to show you that your "fact" is not always true. I'm going to assume that the ~10 damage difference between the two is valid enough at high attack levels common to merit PTs that it will not vary much.

Let's assume that the two have equal haste:

Pachi: 480* 4 = 1920 / 60 = 32 seconds for >100% TP
Hagun: 450 * 5 = 2250 / 60 = 37.5 seconds for >100% TP
Delay Difference = 30, damage difference ~=10 (and -6 acc, which plays a role).

Hagun Damage is X, Pachi Damage is X+10
100% TP Delay difference = 330
So in the same amount of time, Pachi will do 4.6875(X+10) and Hagun will do 5(X)
Algebra happens
Pachi and Hagun DoT are equal when X = 150.

Assuming 100% accuracy, we get the following.
If Hagun's average hit is below 150 damage, Pachi DoT is better.
If Hagun's average hit is above 150 damage, Hagun DoT is better.

150 is a rather high, but not completely unreasonable estimate of hit damage on mobs like Colibri (remember crits also count). I would say in this scenario that the DoT between the two weapons is close enough to not matter very much. Remember also to factor in that accuracy is not 100%, and that using the Pachi will have a parse-able noticeable affect on DoT.

Someone should check my math, but based on this you cannot say that one DoT is strictly better than the other (which is what you are implying)

Agreed, and yeah GKT hardly deals 150 damage on average per hit.

New to Tachi:Rana's "Damage varies by TP" - THIS IS A MISTRANSLATION

It says "Acc varies by TP" in JP version, and it doesn't deal any more damage with 200/300TP, tested and verified.

[Drex]

SAM can't wear Aurum Body, unfortunately.

At bird camp I had my own personal healer that I was duoing them with, so I had no songs, but kept hasso up full time, which is a bit unrealistic I guess. I wanted a capped acc test (birds), and if pachi came out ahead, then I would've tested in uncapped acc situations (mamool) to see how big of a difference the -acc made. Since Pachi lost even with capped acc, I knew Hagun would pull ahead even more at higher eva camps and kinda ditched my testing there.

I did eventually get a mamool party anyway and tried it for kicks, but I had hunter's roll so my acc numbers were screwed up anyway and I didn't bother messing with the results.

Had around 94.stuff% acc with both pachi and hagun at birds, so I called it capped acc. That's no food, fulltime hasso.

I don't see Rana from pachi matching hagun's YGK, at all. It's not that powerful of a WS from what I've seen, not nearly enough to make up a 120 damage gap per WS. I also don't see Usu Body turning the tides enough to make pachi better than hagun, which is why I still have and usually use my hagun. I pull out the pachi for fun now and then, but I know who the king is.

Whenever I get around to unlocking rana (floor 5 disc and no windslicer, so will be a while) I'll try it out anyway just to be sure, but I really doubt rana pachi will beat ygk hagun.

[Aux]

If we took this to the next level and considered Futsuno owners with a 5hit build and Rana (obviously next to extinct probably), is it possible that this will have an edge over Pachio's Rana?
I'm pretty sure the obvious answer is yes, but how would this stand up to say, an Amano Rana?

[SamanosukeShiva]

amano rana will win obviously DMG88 and +20 acc

[FailureMidgard]

Okay, to start with, Drex is merely swapping weapons out, he wasn't attempting to maintain his hit build. His numbers are thus off by ~10-11 attack (which is actually a decent #) to what it would be with Usu Body. His #s are also lower than anything I've ever seen, which leads me to believe he didn't have minuet during his tests, making 10-11 attack an even bigger deal than it would be otherwise. I'd guess he'd lose ~2-3 average damage per swing if he had switched out of whatever body he is in. Past that, I'm not sure why his accuracy didn't drop between those 2 parses. He wasn't capped in either, everything I'm led to believe by what Amele/etc posted here is that should be in the vicinity of 3% accuracy, not 1%. We also have no clue what his sample size or gear setup was.

You cannot take 1 small set of unrealistic data and try to call it a conclusive average. (No offense to Drex, I don't think he ever intended it to be used in that way, he was just giving initial impressions)

I still think that Rana #s will be even lower when someone gets around to parsing on higher lvl mobs (ideally without a madrigal...I hate getting stuck with a madrigal on sam with a GK...) because I am fairly certain the WS average will drop even more due to either needing to stack more accuracy, or just missing hits more often.

And Amele, your comparison of a D83 and D75 weapon are off - the % increase is the difference after fSTR and WSCs are added in. For weaponskill purposes, that's going to be something like 7/180, not 7/75.

Hagun should be ~15% more WS damage than a D83 weapon...

[edit: I guess Drex said he didn't have minuet, his attack was definitely artificially inflated there.]

[Leolai]

Made a vid of a friend playing around with Tachi:Rana between windows at Aspid, complete with windower plugins and all: (for those that haven't seen it in action yet)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YReOzoSj0hU

[Drex]

I did include a caveat that the sample size was small. The testing was 25 kashas with pachi vs. 25 kashas with hagun, nothing definitive. It was just something that I was curious about and no one else had tested yet (because pachi was still very new at the time).

I did switch gear around a bit for the testing. I had a consistant 5-hit build with pachi vs. a consistant 6-hit with hagun.

hagun/pole strap/tiphia
aces/j-torque/bushi/brutal
hauby/dusk gloves/rajas/ulths
cerb/swift/byakkos/usu feet

vs.

pachi/pole strap/tiphia
aces/j-torque/bushi/brutal
hauby/hachiman/rajas/ulths
cerb/swift/byakkos/usu feet

To maintain the 5-hit, I WSed in domaru and usu feet while using pachi. Otherwise the WS gear between the two was identical:

gk/pole/olibanum
shura/gorget/bushi/brutal
osode (hag) or hachiman (pach)/alkys/rajas/flame
cerb/warwolf/shura/rutters (hag) or usu (pach)

I have 5/5 store tp, 3/5 overwhelm, 8/8 gk merits.

My intent with the test wasn't to prove one was better than the other, it was just to throw some numbers out there that people could work with and make a decision on (like I said, I suck with the math and wanted other people to do it for me lol)

I guess I'll retest sometime, I was surprised by my accuracy too. Maybe it was a flaw in the parser, I'm not sure. I was subbing DRG for all of this (free +10 acc) and also fulltimed hasso (+10 more acc). Like I said, my initial intent was to get my acc as high as possible to see how bad the -6 was, and it really didn't bother me. It amounted to about .8% accuracy lost on the parse.

Copy pasta of my notes on the parse results from the duo testing:

Pachipachio - 25 Kashas, Average 697.85 @ 95% WS Acc, Range 525-1055
TPing: Average 97.90/hit, 93.58% accuracy

Hagun - 25 Kashas, Average 818.37 @95% WS Acc, Range 578-1248
TPing: Average 87.08/hit, 94.44% accuracy

Hagun WS average ~17.3% more damage than pachi.

I was hesitant to do the testing in a party setting, because I can't guarantee I'll always have overwhelm, songs, rolls, dia, angon, feint, etc. - so many variables to deal with. If someone else wants to handle all that, they're welcome to. I've had parties with all sorts of rolls and songs and buffs, and hagun has never lost to pachipachio for me. The edge hagun has on WS damage is just too much, especially when you factor in free WSes from meditate.

I'd love to be wrong. I would love for pachi to end up beating hagun. I'm just not convinced, personally.

[eva00r]

yea .. go go test it anyone who has pachi, hagun and rana. i'd like to see how this end.

[VZX]

Well from the last WS mod research thread it seems Rana have STR_30% mod

So it'll leave Pachi Rana vs Hagun YGK damage as

D = Hagun base damage
X = total STR

Hagun YGK : (D+16+.6225X) * 1.875 * pDIF1
Pachi Rana : ((D+7)+17+.249X) * 3.0 * pDIF2

Assume pDIF bonus from YGK makes pDIF1 = 2.5 and
Let say Rana without pDIF bonus will have 1.2 pDIF

(EDIT)
Extending it :
Hagun YGK : (D+16+.6225X) * 1.875 * 2.50 = 4.6875D + 75 + 2.9179685X
Pachi Rana : ((D+7)+17+.249X) * 3.0 * 1.20 = 3.6D + 61.2 + 0.894X

Seems obvious YGK winning there.
If we use pDIF = 2.0:
Hagun YGK : (D+16+.6225X) * 1.875 * 2.00 = 3.75D + 60 + 2.334375X

Hagun YGK still win

[Ayvaen]

Wouldn't Rana be better paired with Soboro?