The new Samurai: Tachi:Rana and storetp setup - gathering information

[Ayvaen]

Hagun YGK : (D+16+.6225X) * 1.0 * pDIF1

Maybe my math is bad here, but wouldn't the fTP mod be more then 1.0? I thought with Hagun the fTP on YGK was 1.8ish.

[eva00r]

Can SAM reach 156 STR ?

[Ayvaen]

Can SAM reach 156 STR ?

Elvaan SAM 5 STR merits base = 80
+10 Kirin's Osode
+2 Bushinomimi
+10 Hasso
+5 Flame Ring
+5 Rajas Ring
+3 Rutter Sabatons
+10 Hachiryu Haidate
+4 Cerb Mantle +1
+5 Warwolf Belt
+11 Alky Bracers
+6 New Beastmen Hat (can't remember name)
+5 Justice Torque
+2 Elvaan Sachet
+3 Axe Grip
= 161

I don't think it matters though, I think the wrong fTP value was used in approximating that STR value.

[eva00r]

Elvaan SAM 5 STR merits base = 80
+10 Kirin's Osode
+2 Bushinomimi
+10 Hasso
+5 Flame Ring
+5 Rajas Ring
+3 Rutter Sabatons
+10 Hachiryu Haidate
+4 Cerb Mantle +1
+5 Warwolf Belt
+11 Alky Bracers
+6 New Beastmen Hat (can't remember name)
+5 Justice Torque
+2 Elvaan Sachet
+3 Axe Grip
= 161

I don't think it matters though, I think the wrong fTP value was used in approximating that STR value.

1.0 is # of hit.

He assumed fTP 2.5 ~= (1.875+0.1) * 1.2 for Hagun+WS gorget and 1.2 for Rana isn't it?

[VZX]

Maybe my math is bad here, but wouldn't the fTP mod be more then 1.0? I thought with Hagun the fTP on YGK was 1.8ish.

Ooops
You're right.
This is what I usually got. Head and hands are not in sync. revising my post.

1.0 is # of hit.

He assumed fTP 2.5 ~= (1.875+0.1) * 1.2 for Hagun+WS gorget and 1.2 for Rana.

Was intending to meant that way, but I forgot to put the fTP term. He was right

[eva00r]

Then i'm super confusing here.

Hagun YGK : (D+16+.6225X) * 1.875 * 2.5
Pachi Rana : ((D+7)+17+.249X) * 3.0 * 1.2

Why 2 pDIF are so different ? It's just a value that derived from pretty much the same atk/def ratio.

[Starr]

They say YGK has an increase in pDIF, aswell as some other WS'

[Amele]

And Amele, your comparison of a D83 and D75 weapon are off - the % increase is the difference after fSTR and WSCs are added in. For weaponskill purposes, that's going to be something like 7/180, not 7/75.

Hagun should be ~15% more WS damage than a D83 weapon...

sure. the point was that it wasn't going to be a straight up 20% bonus.

and 180 would require alot of strength (nearly 140) which seems to be higher than standard kit would hit.

(it's hittable, just not easily. most sam seem to ride the 120-130 range on ws str.) at 130 str the difference happens to be uh. 8/156. which to be fair, is 5% ish, and consistent with your 15% more WS damage than a D83 (which leads me to believe you had actually calculated the latter at an earlier date, and the former had just been thrown out for the purposes of demonstrating what I did wrong).

gap closes a tiny bit more on attack bonus (and acc bonus) from specific D:83 weapon and the (slight) advantage it has in double attack, but these are pretty negligible and shouldn't add up to anything close to 15%. (note that, since it *does* outdamage by about 8% per hit in TP that it wouldn't *have* to, but 8% per hit isn't going to close the gap on 15% ws difference)


tachi: rana being varies acc by TP is an important revelation. 1) huge advantage using rana with sekka assuming the accuracy penalty @100 is small/non-existant. and 2) martial TP bonus is virtually useless on the ws. (which probably just influences -which- weaponskill hagun uses, and not whether or not hagun is better or worse than imaginary mainstream gkt X)


as for futsuno: futsuno 5 hit setups were already superior to hagun >.> the five hit setup on futsuno is a) free, and b) D:84 is a big difference (especially if the str latent is at all available in WS) - including the fact that starting at 131 global strength, you break the fstr cap on hagun, but not on futsuno...

[Amele]

They say YGK has an increase in pDIF, aswell as some other WS'

not sure if I buy it. I'll parse in more careful detail next time I go out and see if I can find evidence for it.

[Starr]

Studio Gobli showed it aswell as other ws that I can't remember, I wouldn't buy it but it doesn't seem an impossibility to me

[Ayvaen]

The innate pDIF boost to Y G K are what makes them work. They *have* to exist. It's easy to calculate, just grab the numbers from WSing a merit mob a few times and calculate what your pDIF has to be to pull off that kind of result. You'll notice it's much higher than is possible just from your attack (and that's also why attack has very little effect on Y G K).

[Rajah]

Pachi and Rana seem to go hand in hand. For pachi to have a 5 hit with YGK, more STP is needed than you would find in a traditional hagun 6 hit. However with rana, relying on the 2 additional hits, only 19.6 TP over 5 swings is needed for 98 TP (+2). You need 51 STP, or 16 STP in gear with 5/5 Merits. It is possible to have slightly less STP for TP gain, but more in WS to make up for it.

Example:

35 Base STP, Pachi (2), Brutal (1), Rajas (5) Usukane Sune-ate (7) x 13 = 19.5 x 4 = 78

You then need 154 STP in WS set

35 Base STP, Pachi (2), Brutal (1), Rajas (5) Usukane Sune-ate (7) Domaru (8)

There could be other variations, like hachiman kote if you don't have usukane boots, or white tathlum to require only one addiitional hit to retain 5 hit. Full usukane is the most ideal for TP gain with pachi, but it should be known it isn't necessary.

[FailureMidgard]

Hmmm...

First off, fTP of both WSes should include gorget. It is -definitely- worth using on both (which is going to be in favor of YGK).
Should be ~1.975-2.0 for YGK (some builds end up a little past 100tp), and 3.1 for Rana.

Second, the STR bonus should be .25+6225 or .8725 per str. At 120 str, that would be 104 "D", added to Hagun's base is 180. Are you not counting the fSTR into the equation? 'cause that is part of the same term. My 5% was just a very quick overshoot on a guess in favor of Pachi. I thought it was be less than that, but saw no point in getting an exact # when we didnt even have a calculation with all the other variables.

Third, was the +16 vs +17 assuming fSTR cap? I don't know about most Sam, but I am definitely not breaking fSTR cap. Also, as I have said before, I don't know why the same STR is being assumed on both WSes. Now that we know it's a .30 STR multi-hit WS with accuracy varies with TP, I -highly- doubt it gets the innate accuracy bump that YGK get. You are going to want as much accuracy in your WS gear as you can possibly get. Even with capped accuracy, only .85 of your WSes will land all 3 swings. This needs to be treated as a multi-hit WS and -not- as YGK. I'm not saying all the STR will drop even, but any Samurai WSing in YGK gear is going to be putting out awful numbers on anything real...I wish someone with Rana would go prove there is no innate accuracy bonus and try to WS 20 times with YGK gear and count # of hits (without madrigal).

Fourth, Pachi is either giving up ~3% haste or even with Usu body is not going to get the +attk that it has built in (Haub>Usu loses that much attack). Drex tested, switching out his gloves to Hachiman. This allowed him to keep the attack on Pachi. Meanwhile, his attack was artificially lowered well below a normal value, making the attack that much more valuable. Point is, this extra attack that would not be had with an Usu setup is probably adding 2-3 damage per hit on normal hits, when the gap is only 10 dmg to begin with. These #s should -not- be used as a basis for all math. While Pachi will hit slightly harder, it does swing slower. Furthermore, he may have actually been past accuracy cap on Hagun, but just parsed a little bit low due to RNG. That is my assumption at the moment.

That's enough for now.

[Ayvaen]

Still don't get why Soboro wouldn't vastly outperform Pachipachio. Because Soboro is 2 hits on average, you're basically getting a 3 hit setup (if you use a 6 hit setup with Soboro). Yes the base damage is half of what it would be with Pachipachio, but the WS damage wouldn't be halved, because your STR is being taken into account for damage on each WS.

The only reason Soboro wasn't clearly better than Hagun now adays is the extra D and the Tp bonus offered; since we finally have a TP bonus independent weapon skill, it's time to look to Soboro again not Pachipachio.

[Amele]

Still don't get why Soboro wouldn't vastly outperform Pachipachio. Because Soboro is 2 hits on average, you're basically getting a 3 hit setup (if you use a 6 hit setup with Soboro). Yes the base damage is half of what it would be with Pachipachio, but the WS damage wouldn't be halved, because your STR is being taken into account for damage on each WS.

The only reason Soboro wasn't clearly better than Hagun now adays is the extra D and the Tp bonus offered; since we finally have a TP bonus independent weapon skill, it's time to look to Soboro again not Pachipachio.

soboro will suck because the fstr cap is too low and you don't get the advantage of a high WSC mod.

would you bet on three random ass hits from soboro outparsing a gekko ? didn't think so.

[VZX]

First off, fTP of both WSes should include gorget. It is -definitely- worth using on both (which is going to be in favor of YGK).
Should be ~1.975-2.0 for YGK (some builds end up a little past 100tp), and 3.1 for Rana.

That should be the case

Second, the STR bonus should be .25+6225 or .8725 per str. At 120 str, that would be 104 "D", added to Hagun's base is 180. Are you not counting the fSTR into the equation? 'cause that is part of the same term. My 5% was just a very quick overshoot on a guess in favor of Pachi. I thought it was be less than that, but saw no point in getting an exact # when we didnt even have a calculation with all the other variables.

It doesn't work like that. While it's good for approximating increase, for fSTR, it doesn't reflect the base value.
.25*100 = 25 fSTR, which is invalid already since you have enemy VIT to consider

Third, was the +16 vs +17 assuming fSTR cap? I don't know about most Sam, but I am definitely not breaking fSTR cap.

Yes, it is fSTR cap
I guess it can vary a bit depending on merit/playstyle/target mob.
It takes 127 STR to cap rank 8 weapon fSTR on Colibri. This number can be easily attained for full merit STR Elvaan with mediocre STR gear. Maybe not so much for new 75SAM tatru.

Fourth, Pachi is either giving up ~3% haste or even with Usu body is not going to get the +attk that it has built in (Haub>Usu loses that much attack). Drex tested, switching out his gloves to Hachiman. This allowed him to keep the attack on Pachi. Meanwhile, his attack was artificially lowered well below a normal value, making the attack that much more valuable. Point is, this extra attack that would not be had with an Usu setup is probably adding 2-3 damage per hit on normal hits, when the gap is only 10 dmg to begin with. These #s should -not- be used as a basis for all math. While Pachi will hit slightly harder, it does swing slower. Furthermore, he may have actually been past accuracy cap on Hagun, but just parsed a little bit low due to RNG. That is my assumption at the moment.

That's the deal comparing 5-hit build vs 6-hit build
Even there exist a setup where you can maintain attack, haste, accuracy for both weapon. The base delay difference betwen Pachi and normal GKT is still 30 delay. IMO, there won't be an accuracte way to compare these 2 kind head to head. If you find such way, it probably can have a lot of induced error.

[Fwahm]

Is the Gekko/Kasha/Yukikaze boost a Pdif or a Cratio bonus, and is it known how much? Ground Strike seems to have a similar trait, and knowing what these are might shed some light on it.

[Ayvaen]

soboro will suck because the fstr cap is too low and you don't get the advantage of a high WSC mod.

would you bet on three random ass hits from soboro outparsing a gekko ? didn't think so.

Sorobo's Weapon Rank is 4. That means the upper fSTR cap is 4+8, or 12. That's only 4 points lower than Hagun's fSTR cap. You're really overestimating the loss there, but lets try some actual math to see how it works out.

Using the previous pDIF 2.5 for YGK and 1.2 for Rana, and Soboro vs. Hagun. Both will have equal gear setups for max haste, 6 hit, and equal delays, only Soboro will generate twice as much TP a bit higher DoT.

The question is, does 2 Ranas from Soboro compare to the damage generated by 1 YGK from Hagun?


Formula = (Base D + fSTR Cap + WSC)*pDIF*fTP*Number of WSes

Hagun YGK: (75+16+.6225str)*1.875*2.5*1
(91+.6225str)*4.6875
2.917str+426.5625

Soboro Rana: (40+7+.249str)*3.0*1.2*2
(47+.249str)*7.2
1.7928*str+338.4

Thus not only does the 2 Rana WSes from Soboro start at a lower value, they also scale slower. No matter what your STR value is, 1 Gekko from Hagun is going to outdamage the 2 from Rana unless pDIF is high.

For example if pDIF = 2,
Soboro Rana: (40+7+.249str)*3.0*2*2
(47+.249str)*12
2.988*str+564

Which is signficantly better than Gekko.

Of course these numbers are based on a guess of the pDIF Gekko bonus, they don't include fTP bonuses from gorget, and assume 100% accuracy on Rana. Rana with Soboro is clearly not better just as Amele said, just not because of reasons of fTP.

[FailureMidgard]

It doesn't work like that. While it's good for approximating increase, for fSTR, it doesn't reflect the base value.
.25*100 = 25 fSTR, which is invalid already since you have enemy VIT to consider

oops! I'm dumb ;p In any case, the 15% was about right I guess.

Yes, it is fSTR cap
I guess it can vary a bit depending on merit/playstyle/target mob.
It takes 127 STR to cap rank 8 weapon fSTR on Colibri. This number can be easily attained for full merit STR Elvaan with mediocre STR gear. Maybe not so much for new 75SAM tatru.

Except Pachi/Rana will never be at fSTR cap because as I said, it's not giving you the innate +insane accuracy that YGK does. People need to stop assuming the 2 WSes are using the same gear, Rana is going to have -far- less STR.

That's the deal comparing 5-hit build vs 6-hit build
Even there exist a setup where you can maintain attack, haste, accuracy for both weapon. The base delay difference betwen Pachi and normal GKT is still 30 delay. IMO, there won't be an accuracte way to compare these 2 kind head to head. If you find such way, it probably can have a lot of induced error.

I don't entirely agree. I think the comparison needs to be:
Dusk/Haub/Hagun/YGK
Dusk/Usu/Pachi/Rana
Hachi/Haub/Pachi/Rana

I'm fine with there being different stats, but right now the higher attack of the Hachi/Haub setup is being taken along with the higher haste of the Dusk/Usu setup, and then being compared at a very low attack value which inflates that bonus attack. The problem isn't in that the setups take a different item for the slot, it's with how the math is being done and using incorrect numbers.



And yes, I realize you are still saying Hagun/YGK is likely better, I'm saying it's even better than you're giving credit for it, and people keep overrating the damage that Pachi/Rana is going to do, then use their overrated damage to argue that it's somewhat close.

It's like saying well 3*2 is about 5. And 5*10.5 is about 50. And 50*2.1 is about 100.
So 3*2*10.5*2.1 must be about 100. Which isn't very accurate at all. This is an exaggeration of what's going on clearly, but the same idea is occurring.




Edit in response to Ayvaen: Amele and I had a discussion/argument about this a while back, and I don't even recall the exact #s nor do I want to search for it, but at absolute best, Soboro is WSing like 60% more often Hagun, and likely even less than that. It averages to 1.9 swings per, but there is a -lot- overflow past 100tp.

I do however agree with you on the fSTR thing, for the sheer fact that nobody will ever be at fSTR cap on Rana, as I've said many times. If they are, they are averaging less than 2 hits per swing probably, or have fulltime madrigal (which is inferior in and of itself).

[Ayvaen]

Oohh, that's a good point I didn't consider. A lot of the times you'll get TP overflow which wastes the extra swings... even if it does attack twice as often, that won't really translate into twice as often WSes.