Modus Veritas Revisted (now with Merits)

[Kaeko]

This is mostly just a copy/paste from PMs between Spekkio and I. Basically, we were revisiting the idea of using multiple MVs quickly on the same Helix. This EXACT same discussion was made in an earlier post on BG when SCH came out and someone first reached 65...

http://bluegartr.com/forum/showthrea...dus+veritas%22

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Let's just assume it's 10% of 50% for now (the 10% of full would be broken unless you cannot stack multiple MV on the same helix any longer). Maxed out, your MV would do x2 damage DoT with a 25% reduction in duration.

Helix ticks work like this usually... the first tick occurs 2 seconds after the spell lands, then every 10 seconds after for the duration of the spell. For example, say I land Cryohelix for 100 damage and the duration is 70 seconds...

Initial Damage... 2 seconds in... first tick... 12 seconds in... second tick... etc.etc.... 62 seconds in... 7th tick... 8 seconds of nothing... Helix Wears.

Now lets MV (no merits) and run the same thing.

Initial Damage... MV 1 second in... 2 seconds in... first tick double damage... 12 seconds in... 2nd tick double damage... 22 seconds in (tick)... 32 seconds in (tick)... 3 seconds of nothing... wears off (35 seconds total, 1/2 70).

So even with normal MV, you can increase your damage output with MV if you time it right and use it early (before the first tick occurring at second 2). In this situation I outlined, using MV would increase your damage by just an initial tick.

It's not really always '2 seconds in' but it's something close. I think it has to do with the game clock but never really looked closely at it. Sometimes it happens so fast it's like the first tick happened right when you nuked.

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Now let's say the merit 5/5 gives you only 25% duration down. Same situation 100 damage cryohelix 70 second base duration. It now lasts 52.5 seconds with MW. If you use MV right when it lands and get full double damage ticks, the result is initial damage + 6 double damage ticks. To summarize damage outputs...

Normal Helix of 70 seconds = initial damage x8

Normal Helix of 70 seconds + MV = initial damage x9

Normal Helix of 70 seconds + MV5/5 = initial damage x13

It's about a 62-63% damage increase on your Helix after using a well timed MV 5/5. Pretty decent.

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So your question about stacking... Let's ASSUME you can stack as many as you want and that that first tick occurs at second #2. Easiest thing to see is see how many MVs you can do while still keeping duration above 2 seconds (to allow for tick, if it goes below, it's like the helix was on but wore off before tick occurred).

Again, 100 damage base, 70 sec base duration. All MVs hit before 2nd second (first tick). 3 Numbers listed as duration, MV# used, and "DoT damage per tick". Rounding down on seconds btw.

70 ; 0 ; 100
35 ; 1 ; 200
17 ; 2 ; 400
08 ; 3 ; 800
04 ; 4 ; 1600
02 ; 5 ; 3200

So you can only get off 5 MVs with no merits if you do it fast and perfectly before first tick occurs at 2nd second. This caps your damage at 32 times your initial damage. Now lets see with 5/5 MVs (75% duration)...

52 ; 0 ; 100
39 ; 1 ; 200
29 ; 2 ; 400
22 ; 3 ; 800
16 ; 4 ; 1600
12 ; 5 ; 3200
09 ; 6 ; 6400
07 ; 7 ; 12800
05 ; 8 ; 25600
03 ; 9 ; 51200
02 ; 10 ; 102400
02 ; 11 ; 204800

This caps at 2048 times your initial damage!... Theoredically, IF you can still stack at least 10-11 MVs, everyone had 5/5 merits in it, and you got all 10-11 off before that first time (~2 seconds, but remember it's still variable and not exact), you would produce 1 nasty DoT tick.

If you take perfect nuking conditions and SCH/BLM using Elemental Seal, Day and Weather bonus... you should be able to do at least 100 initial damage. Also, the duration I set for this 'test' was 70 sec, but it can vary from 60 to 80 I think. Anything over 100k I would consider a "1 shot kill". I think the new AV has 66k?

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Couple things need to be tested with this idea...

1) Can MVs from different SCHs stack? We know it can for the same SCH (using COR to immediatley refilled - test done by Kohanacat back in Dec07). If it can, is there a limit?

2) Ensure that 5/5 MV merits does cause just a 25% duration decrease and not something else. Description points to this though.

3) Figure out how exactly that first 'tick' is applied on Helix. I think most SCHs that mess around with Helix know it's a bit random... sometimes that tick comes late, other times it's extremely fast and seemingly instant.

Thoughts?

[Zilong]

I thought they specify changing how modus veritas work on the update notes?

[Kaeko]

I thought they specify changing how modus veritas work on the update notes?

I think they just said it can no longer be used on a mob unless it actively has helix on it (which sucks because I used to use it as a pulling move on magic aggro mobs).

I'm not sure it if affects anything with using multiple MV on the same helix.

[FailureMidgard]

Rewriting this entire post.

First off, it definitely stacks across multiple scholars. Just tested in Bhaflau with another scholar.

As for the merits, I went ahead and put 2 points into MV merits, and it is -really- hard to tell if it's even working. I can say it's definitely not 10% of the original duration. My times were nowhere near that. I'm hoping the RNG is just beating me at the moment, but yea, I can't see a damned difference in Helix duration with 2pt MV.

Finally, if your goal was to 1-shot AV, should be pretty simple assuming you can keep him from depopping. Just keep trying until it works (the first tick is delayed long enough)...should easily be able to recover/etc. Get a new shot every 10 minutes. ;p

Assuming these merits work, I think the strat would work, and I think as soon as SE finds out, they will change it.

[Lilswitche]

So you can only get off 5 MVs with no merits if you do it fast and perfectly before first tick occurs at 2nd second. This caps your damage at 32 times your initial damage. Now lets see with 5/5 MVs (75% duration)...

52 ; 0 ; 100
39 ; 1 ; 200
29 ; 2 ; 400
22 ; 3 ; 800
16 ; 4 ; 1600
12 ; 5 ; 3200
09 ; 6 ; 6400
07 ; 7 ; 12800
05 ; 8 ; 25600
03 ; 9 ; 51200
02 ; 10 ; 102400
02 ; 11 ; 204800

I'm a little confused by your math here. Shouldn't it start at 70sec and not 52sec? (Assuming that the middle column represents the number of MV applied)

[Vail]

with double weather vs Tabar Beaks (outside of Jeuno) I've been getting 1min+7-8sec helix durations, now with MV you'd get 33-34 seconds out of that

I have lv1 merit in MV right now, and did my first MV helix and it lasted 41 seconds.......................
which means it's added 10% of the missing duration (60% duration) with just lv1

I'll do a few more trys to get the numbers exactly down, but the way it's working with lv1, giving 60% duration time

[Vail]

ok just tested with a fellow 75 sch, target was Toads in West Saru(S)

duration was appx 68 seconds with day/weather match up (darks day, voidstorm, same as my first test above)

both used MV in quick succession, both stacked, duration was appx 15 seconds (some pausing in time about 1 sec between MVs)

intial duration appx 68sec, 65 sec when first MV activated (50% duration cut, he had no merits) so 32.5 sec, about 2sec passed , then my MV was used, and we ended up getting 14ish sec, trying to figure this out

need to do more test to get this down right

[Vail]

ok these times are all funky to me, something isn't coming out right

29:22 helix
30:43 off
-----
1:21 time

31:28 helix
31:34 MV
32:15 off
-----
0:41 time

should have been appx 75sec on that helix still so 41secs out of 75secs = 54.8% duration

my above post earlier when testing the Tabar beaks I never got the 1:21 duration, these were happening on the toads (the 1:21)

so likely what happened on that tabar beak I used MV on and got 46sec duration was a 1:21 normal duration and got my MV off quicker

with more merits, this will be easier to test, 1 merit in this (considering the flimsy timing duration of Helix spells) is very annoying

[mym]

I think I remember from some testing a while back, that Helix damage ticks off at the 7's on the in game clock. Like 2:07, 2:17, 2:27 etc.

[Spekkio]

if it's truly that simplistic, that would make timing a trivial matter. just go when you see the clock hit six and the modus veritas should register in time w/o being late.

[Acorn]

I think I remember from some testing a while back, that Helix damage ticks off at the 7's on the in game clock. Like 2:07, 2:17, 2:27 etc.

Not true. And if it used to be, it isn't anymore because I just tried it.

[FailureMidgard]

ok these times are all funky to me, something isn't coming out right

29:22 helix
30:43 off
-----
1:21 time

31:28 helix
31:34 MV
32:15 off
-----
0:41 time

should have been appx 75sec on that helix still so 41secs out of 75secs = 54.8% duration

my above post earlier when testing the Tabar beaks I never got the 1:21 duration, these were happening on the toads (the 1:21)

so likely what happened on that tabar beak I used MV on and got 46sec duration was a 1:21 normal duration and got my MV off quicker

with more merits, this will be easier to test, 1 merit in this (considering the flimsy timing duration of Helix spells) is very annoying

You`do realize that the helix spells have a variable duration?
With 2 merits I was unable to notice a difference in durations (on average).
I did however get 1 42second MVed helix, which should be above the upper bound on a non-merited MV. Past that, it was pretty meh.

[Kaeko]

I'm a little confused by your math here. Shouldn't it start at 70sec and not 52sec? (Assuming that the middle column represents the number of MV applied)

Ah you're right that's a screw up in the calculation

I actually under-estimate the damage potential by x2 in that lol

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It seems that the duration is pretty hard to judge... What about seeing if Elemental Seal auto-caps the duration?

[FailureMidgard]

Ah you're right that's a screw up in the calculation

I actually under-estimate the damage potential by x2 in that lol

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It seems that the duration is pretty hard to judge... What about seeing if Elemental Seal auto-caps the duration?

I can test that...but if it is indeed accuracy, all of my tests were done with Klimaform and appropriate day and weather (and obi). The only thing I saw that I thought was a resist was one of my non-MV helixes that wore off after 42 seconds. I do not think ES will show a difference in duration.

{edit:}
First cast with ES + MV (no weather, no klimaform, no obi, 2 merits): 26sec duration...resist anyway? lol

[FailureMidgard]

Really need more than 2 merits to make this worth testing. Should be far easier to see +25% as opposed to +10%.

As far as the ticks go, I have been able to control if I want it to tick right away or after a bit.

For me, no matter when I cast, the ticks are showing up between ZZ:ZZ:Z4 and ZZ:ZZ:Z6 on my timestamps. I would assume any variation is due to both latency of the chat and human reaction of me hitting enter to make an echo appear in the chatlog. That being said, since the ticks are 10 seconds apart, it has been rather easy for me to force the first tick to be ~5 seconds after my initial cast. It's kinda hard to tell exactly when the spell lands though due to latency issues...I'm not sure I could force it to tick exactly 2 seconds after I cast, but I can definitely force it to tick "very soon" after, or "quite a bit after".

2nd ES MV (2merit) Helix (with Klimaform/weather also): 40 seconds. Inconclusive yet again. ;p

[Spekkio]

can an elemental shot increase the duration on a debuff or only the potency? IE if i had a para2 on a mob, but my gear and mnd sucked (not much of a supposition there!) causing the duration to be significantly curtailed, would an ice shot push the duration closer to capped duration or would it simply enhance the proc rate?

[Thorny]

3) Figure out how exactly that first 'tick' is applied on Helix. I think most SCHs that mess around with Helix know it's a bit random... sometimes that tick comes late, other times it's extremely fast and seemingly instant.

I was under the impression all 'ticks' process at once during a timer the server constantly has running. It's easy enough to see when combining ballad with refresh/traits, I don't see why it'd work differently for debuffs on mobs.. I just did a quick test outside(granted I do not have scholar leveled, so it was with poison II). I used the job combination RDM/SAM to incorporate as much as possible into this test in a short amount of time. DoTing a lesser colibri from 100% to dead, I did not once see it's HP% drop out of synchronization with my orochi nodowa's regen click, refresh click, or even meditate click while that was active. While this is a very fast and inconclusive test, would it be unreasonable to assume that the server has a running timer that checks every 3 seconds and does all of these processes at once? Helixes could simply be done every 2nd or 3rd click, though as previously stated I do not have scholar leveled to test this(or much experience with helixes for that matter, just throwing in my 2 cents).

Edit: The /SAM was sort of because for ages I've been assuming with no proof that this is the reason for the variation between TP gained. This confirmed that in my book, at the very least.

[Kaeko]

I was under the impression all 'ticks' process at once during a timer the server constantly has running. It's easy enough to see when combining ballad with refresh/traits, I don't see why it'd work differently for debuffs on mobs.. I just did a quick test outside(granted I do not have scholar leveled, so it was with poison II). I used the job combination RDM/SAM to incorporate as much as possible into this test in a short amount of time. DoTing a lesser colibri from 100% to dead, I did not once see it's HP% drop out of synchronization with my orochi nodowa's regen click, refresh click, or even meditate click while that was active. While this is a very fast and inconclusive test, would it be unreasonable to assume that the server has a running timer that checks every 3 seconds and does all of these processes at once? Helixes could simply be done every 2nd or 3rd click, though as previously stated I do not have scholar leveled to test this(or much experience with helixes for that matter, just throwing in my 2 cents).

Edit: The /SAM was sort of because for ages I've been assuming with no proof that this is the reason for the variation between TP gained. This confirmed that in my book, at the very least.

It seems most reasonable that the DoT and other frequency based things like Regen would follow an in-game based timer. Hopefully we can figure out what it is for helices specifically.

[LD]

FFXI time has its own system, perhaps the 3 second thing is merely an approximation of the actual tick length. If that's true, then Helix tick intervals might make more sense.

[Spekkio]

if we could lock it down the exact helix tick by finding an initial index and calculating offsets from it, we could in theory predict the next one and time our veritas in relation to it. possibly have a PC based tool or windower plugin to count them off. sync to an atomic clock for your sys clock daily and you should be able to do that quite easily if it's that reliable.