NFL Week 2...The Beginning Is The End Is The Beginning

[Deejay]

Last I checked, you can't win football games without scoring points.

And isn't Kerry Collins like 1-3 as a starter? He even has a lower everything too. (Lower passer rating, QB rating, TD/INT ratio, everything)....

[Akiyama]

Last I checked, VY had 9 TDs and 19 INTs last year, and of those 19 INTs, I'm sure half of them put the Titans in trouble that their defense had to bail them out of. They had a lot of low scoring wins last year iirc. Kerry Collins is also OLD and not in his prime. Bad argument there.

[Plow]

Last I checked, you can't win football games without scoring points.

And isn't Kerry Collins like 1-3 as a starter? He even has a lower everything too. (Lower passer rating, QB rating, TD/INT ratio, everything)....

Collins has played pretty well when Young has gone out, the real reason he's a backup at this point is that he was a really bad alcoholic and fucked himself pretty much. There's a decent amount of teams he could start for. He has a college national title under his belt as well.

Want me to disect everything about the post you just made? I'd really rather not. =P He led his college team to a National Championship basically by himself. Hoorah. He was a decent college QB with semi-shitty passing numbers. Hoorah again!

"Decent" is totally the way anyone with common sense and any kind of football knowledge whatsoever would call a college QB with a national championship due to him putting on the greatest college football performance of all time, with a career record of 30-2 in a bcs conference. You're not stretching or belittling in any way there.

His Junior year he was 212/325 for 3,036 yards and 26td with 10int. Yeap, semi-shitty is a PERFECT description of those passing numbers. You totally got me there.

He was drafted high. That's as much the team's fault as it is his. He basically earned that draft pick based on his Rose Bowl performance, and for playing shitty teams in college. Congrats?

Yeah, the Oklahoma and USC teams he faced that were both touted as being among the best ever were totally shit, along with the K-State teams that had 2-3 heisman candidates at the same times, etc. etc. Oh, that's right, they're not in the SEC, they might as well be high school teams.

He didn't carry the Titans to the playoffs. His defense did. If Vince had to win more games than he did (and yes, I recall him winning the game on his run against the Texans, along with a couple others) than I doubt they'd be in the playoffs. They'd be a 7-9 or 8-8 team at best. When you play the Titans, you don't have to worry about the pass. Just stack the run. He'll just overthrow wide open receivers like he did this past Sunday. =P

Yeah, that defense was totally carrying the team to the playoffs as they went 0-3 before he started, and 0-2 his first 2 starts of his rookie season, before he got it together and went 8-3 over the rest of the year, then brought them to the playoffs last year.

And I'd take that money. I'd call him a weak pussy to his face because face it, while his team has had a good 19-11 or 20-11.. whatever the fuck he is as the QB, he hasn't accounted for all of it. His ass has been saved by the great play of his D.

Which is why they were 0-3 before he took over, and 4-12 the year before, with essentially the only really major changes to the defense in the past few years being giving pacman the boot.


edit to say that I can't wait to hear you bitch about me actually using real numbers in an argument instead of just talking out my ass like it's fact

[Demosthenes11]

I've been saying this since he got in the league

VY is garbage. Donovan McNabb is like the VY that turned out to be good

[Tyche]

Colin Cowherd said it best (oh how I love thee Mr. 10-2 against the spread). Go coach a division 2 football team vince...

OH, and Plow, of you want numbers from 2006. The titans started 0-5 and they opened with the Bolts, the Colts, and the cowboys. Their Defense allowed an average of 27 points over those 5 games. The 8 wins that followed, their D allowed about 20 a game. The defense improved and began to click. They started out 0-5, defense clamped down and they started to win. Shocking statistic. THe next year, they went to the playoffs, they allowed less than 18 points a game. Again, shocking. IN SPITE of Young (not to be confused with carrying his team) turning the ball over a tremendous amount of times, their defense held teams very well in a very very tough division.

Pro-tip: You don't have to have major changes to a team or defense to see improvement after 4 games. It's called getting better as you play more games...this thing called experience, it seems to work. ODD, I KNOW!

[Akiyama]

Because I've never used real numbers to back up my facts..? Seriously man? Seriously? I really REALLY don't want to dig out his college schedule right now. It's late. I'll do that tomorrow. I'm not sure, but didn't he have a 40-26 TD/INT ratio overall when not counting just his Junior year? That's what I was referring to as semi-shitty. 40-26 TD/INT ratio in college against some of the teams he faced when he was in school is NOT good. Bradford, Chase Daniels.. hell, even Jason White would have done a hell of a lot better than that. Real numbers? Okay, sure. I've got em. I always do.

It's just so easy to talk out of my ass when it's about Vince because he fucking sucks. He's a shitty quarterback. Maybe he can manage a game well, but he's a shitty passing QB. Unless he comes out and at least throws more TDs than INTs in a season, I'll stand by that fact. That or maybe get to the Super Bowl.

Will you please stop bringing the SEC into the conversation every time like it's your crutch against me or something? So I like the SEC. So what. You like the Big-12. Woopdeefuckingdoo. I haven't mentioned the SEC, tougher schedules, better teams, or anything like that at all in my argument. I. don't. have. to. When playing teams like Texas El-Paso, Middle Missouri State Tech College U, or whatever the fuck else they play, seriously? Hi gaiz. I'm here to pad my stats for a few quarters. D:

Seriously though. I don't know his schedule from 2004 and 2005, which is when I believe he came in, and then won his National Title.

ALSO, last I checked, winning a National Championship =/= good NFL QB. Just sayin'.

I know you'll defend VY til death, so I may as well concede. Maybe if his mommy stops coming to his aide when he's sad that Titans fans are booing him and seeing something the head office couldn't, I'll change my mind about him.

Edit: Thank you Tyche for that tidbit of information that I'm too lazy to get. Colin is also the man. He's ridiculously good when it comes to picking winners. D:

[Plow]

Because I've never used real numbers to back up my facts..?

No, because you've complained more than once about people using "stat sites" in arguments.

Seriously man? Seriously? I really REALLY don't want to dig out his college schedule right now. It's late. I'll do that tomorrow. I'm not sure, but didn't he have a 40-26 TD/INT ratio overall when not counting just his Junior year? That's what I was referring to as semi-shitty. 40-26 TD/INT ratio in college against some of the teams he faced when he was in school is NOT good. Bradford, Chase Daniels.. hell, even Jason White would have done a hell of a lot better than that. Real numbers? Okay, sure. I've got em. I always do.

Because it's common for QB's in college to have almost twice as many td as int. Definitely "semi-shitty." Selvin Young... Adrian Peterson. Selvin Young... Adrian Peterson. Hmm.

You Just compared a guy that lost 55-19 favorably to virtually the exact same team that VY put the best single player performance we'll ever see at any level of football against.

It's just so easy to talk out of my ass when it's about Vince because he fucking sucks. He's a shitty quarterback. Maybe he can manage a game well, but he's a shitty passing QB. Unless he comes out and at least throws more TDs than INTs in a season, I'll stand by that fact. That or maybe get to the Super Bowl.

When VY has been in the league for more than 2 years, and doesn't get hurt (I dare you to call him injury prone when he's out for 2-4 weeks after taking an extremely similar hit to the one that took Brady out for the season, basically the same with less weight on it), he'll do exactly that.

Nobody's saying he's a brilliant passer that's going to tear up the league and challenge the major records, but you know as well as I do that it's unreasonable to expect a quarterback, especially a dual threat, to put up the kind of numbers that only the freaks of the league put up that early in their career. Let alone working with the worst group of receivers in the league, and good running game with backs that couldn't catch a cold.

Will you please stop bringing the SEC into the conversation every time like it's your crutch against me or something? So I like the SEC. So what. You like the Big-12. Woopdeefuckingdoo. I haven't mentioned the SEC, tougher schedules, better teams, or anything like that at all in my argument. I. don't. have. to. When playing teams like Texas El-Paso, Middle Missouri State Tech College U, or whatever the fuck else they play, seriously? Hi gaiz. I'm here to pad my stats for a few quarters. D:

You're flat out full of shit here, you're calling playing in the big 12 playing "easy" and "shitty teams."

And the point is that you're still just pissed off that there's someone here that disagrees about the SEC being better than the NFL, and have to turn into an asshole and make ridiculous bullshit comments in response to anything I say. See: "Well, fresno state has played some big teams, but I suppose you're right that it's their biggest game." being responded to by some bullshit about me trying to make you angry.

Seriously though. I don't know his schedule from 2004 and 2005, which is when I believe he came in, and then won his National Title.

Yet you can go into how he was only successful due to playing shitty teams...

ALSO, last I checked, winning a National Championship =/= good NFL QB. Just sayin'.

Who said anything about that? You called his career a failure, winning a national championship pretty much eliminates "failure" from the vernacular of describing his career.

I know you'll defend VY til death, so I may as well concede. Maybe if his mommy stops coming to his aide when he's sad that Titans fans are booing him and seeing something the head office couldn't, I'll change my mind about him.

No, you won't. He could win a super bowl this year and you'd be talking shit about how he still has more int than td for his career and his defense + Johnson carried the team.

Colin Cowherd said it best (oh how I love thee Mr. 10-2 against the spread). Go coach a division 2 football team vince...

OH, and Plow, of you want numbers from 2006. The titans started 0-5 and they opened with the Bolts, the Colts, and the cowboys. Their Defense allowed an average of 27 points over those 5 games. The 8 wins that followed, their D allowed about 20 a game. The defense improved and began to click. They started out 0-5, defense clamped down and they started to win. Shocking statistic. THe next year, they went to the playoffs, they allowed less than 18 points a game. Again, shocking. IN SPITE of Young (not to be confused with carrying his team) turning the ball over a tremendous amount of times, their defense held teams very well in a very very tough division.

Pro-tip: You don't have to have major changes to a team or defense to see improvement after 4 games. It's called getting better as you play more games...this thing called experience, it seems to work. ODD, I KNOW!

Unless, of course, you're talking about a group of receivers over the exact same time period, and it suits your argument to say they're the same.

The defense has improved dramatically with coaching and experience, they were basically the youngest team in football a couple of years ago.

You might recall a guy that was pretty good that played for the titans named Eddie George. A few years ago this funny thing happened... he got old and became nothing like himself. The Titans running game went to shit, and their defense started giving up 25-30 points a game. Then this guy named Vince Young started playing, and suddenly the team was capable of more than running the ball straight up the gut for 2 yards a carry, and the defense became immeasurably better. There was that McNair guy too...

Of course the defense has improved dramatically over time in its raw ability to make plays. It is also affected greatly by the ability to actually get a drive going and not have to have the defense on the field 40 minutes a game.

[Tyche]

You mean get a drive going, turn it over to good field position, and leave it up to the defense to save your ass about twice a game? Exactly!

[Plow]

You mean get a drive going, turn it over to good field position, and leave it up to the defense to save your ass about twice a game? Exactly!

30 interceptions over 30 games = twice a game


k

[Tyche]

The defense doesn't just pick up INT turnovers. There are fumbles as well. As I said, the defense had a lot to deal with and despite that, only allowed 18 points a game. 17 INTs plus 11 lost fumbles = 28. That comes out to about 1.75 turnovers a game. Math is goddamned fun.

[Plow]

he's lost 6 fumbles in his entire career...

[Tyche]

Vince Young isn't the only damn player who fumbles. We're talking the context of defense, not Young. in 2007 Vince contributed 18 of the 28 turnovers. The defense still had to defend against the other 10. As I said, the defense is really god damned good, and supposedly "coincidentally" manned the fuck up 5 games into the 2006 season. But hey, Young makes the defense better by averaging more turnovers a game under his guidance. Must by that dual threat of his, you know, Interceptions and fumbling 5 times in less than 100 carries.

[Akiyama]

The year VY and Texas went undefeated in 2005, they were an awesome team. Lemme run down their actual challenges.

OSU, which they beat 25-22, and Vince Young went 18-29, 270 yards, 2TD 2INT, and ran the ball 20 times for 76 yards. Not bad on the running end, but those two picks really don't help matters. At least they won though.

Colorado and Texas Tech were both ranked when Texas dominated them, but one can argue they were overrated that year. Looking over their schedules and such, it seems... what do you know, Big 12 teams that didn't have defense. Go figure.

IIRC, Oklahoma sucked ass in 2005. Am I wrong? Well sucked ass by their standards. 8-4 I believe.

Then the National Title game against USC. That was indeed a really impressive feat that he pulled off. Was awesome to watch.

But now, let's not forget powerhouses like Louisiana-Lafayette, Rice, @Mizzou (when they fucking sucked), @OK State (Suuuck - 4-7), @Baylor (Suuuck), Kansas (Suuuck), A&M, and then Colorado again in the Big 12 Championship game. Amazing. That's hard.

The most impressive win other than OSU and USC was probably Texas Tech seeing as they finished 9-3. The other teams though had either mediocre, or awful records.

2004 was a fun year. Finished 11-1, won the Rose Bowl.. all is well right? When I mentioned Jason White above, I meant he could put up better numbers than Vince Young in college. Not win a national championship. 1) Oklahoma is like..unable to win a BCS Bowl Game and 2) They ran into a buzz saw. VY lost head to head against that Oklahoma team 12-0 in 2004. Then again, I can't really brag about White right now as he had a completely shitty statline in that game (14-26, 113 yards, 2 INTs). Then again, he's no VY, right?! No. VY went 8-23, 86 yards, and ran the ball 16 times for 54 yards. Amazing numbers in a big game. Then in the game after that up against Mizzou when they won 28-20, he went 3-9, 19 yards 2 INTs, ran 5 times for 53 yards. Now there's the Vince Young we all know and love? Did he start that game? It doesn't say here in the box score that I'm looking at.

Anyway, I'm rambling about his awesome performances in big games. The fact is, their 04 schedule was fun too. Besides barely beating a weak Arkansas Team (5-6) 22-20, they had a tough North Texas, Rice, Baylor, @CU, @Kansas, and such on their schedule. Their 2004 schedule though was tougher than 05 if you based it on teams being ranked at the time that they played them. Mizzou was 5-6, TTech was 8-4, A&M and OK State finished 7-5. Not stellar by any means.

Sorry, once again got caught up rambling on and on with numbers that I never produce. My bad.

Here, I'll just be a blind jackass and end my argument here: I don't like Vince Young. I think he's a shitty quarterback. THE END.

[Plow]

just going with the early part because top starts are too much of a pain in the ass

2006:


jets 34:02 titans 25:58
chargers 38:35 titans 21:25
loldolphins 35:29 titans 24:31

enter vince

cowboys 32:34 titans 27:26
colts 33:55 titans 26:05

then the wins start

titans 35:40 redskins 24:20
titans 23:39 texans 36:21 lol, 28-22 win where they got a nice lead and took it out of the rookie qb's hands only to have them almost come back
titans 29:49 jags 30:11, 37-7 loss... gogo amazing D... vy did throw 3 int that hurt a lot
titans 30:44 ravens 29:16, sick sick D gave up 27 points to the ravens and they lost by 1
titans 23:38 eagles 36:22, game mcnabb went out in, defense gets credit for holding them to 13 but offense put up 31 anyway
titans 26:33 giants 33:37, 24-21 win with all 24 points coming in the 4th quarter, you'd think a self-professed titans fan would remember shit like this when talking about parts of their own team being carried
colts 30:55 titans 29:05, 20-17 win after going down 14-0 in the first quarter, golly gee where've I seen this before
titans 34:37 texans 29:09, overtime win on VY touchdown run
titans 15:38 jags 44:22, defense gets the credit for a 24-17 win where they scored twice and VY didn't really do anything good or bad
titans 33:18 bills 26:42, 30-29 win
pats 29:43 titans 30:17, 40-23 loss


See a pattern here? A couple fluke games, other than that the titans consistently held the ball almost 10 minutes per game longer with VY, and that's just his rookie year.


But all credit goes entirely to the defense, of course, what defense wouldn't give up 20+ points a game against the pats once, the colts twice (who they actually held quite well), the Eagles with McNabb going out, and 12 other games against offenses that were pretty much entirely shit?

[Mizango]

Either way you slice it his Momma agrees with us. I mean that dude told Momma Young on us. we gun git it noaw.

In all seriousness you can arbitrarily throw out all the numbers you want about him, but Alex Smith, Joey Harrington and Rex Grossman all have better completion percentages than Vince. What does that tell you? His fans booed him and he got all butt hurt. Let him talk to Aaron Rodgers about pressure and playing under a microscope.

He is a mental midget and it showed. I mean college stats are nice, if you recall Ryan Leaf was a bad mother fucker in college, so was Josh Huepel, Major Applewhite and Danny Wuerffuel. There was actual debate on who should go first between Leaf and Manning. Sorry man but the Titans chose poorly.

[Kyo]

Should remane this thread: Vince Young, Bitchass or Quaterback.

[Mizango]

Should remane this thread: Vince Young, Bitchass or Quaterback.

LOL that would be pretty bad ass actually. But then again that is merely a rhetorical question at best.

[Plow]

The year VY and Texas went undefeated in 2005, they were an awesome team. Lemme run down their actual challenges.

OSU, which they beat 25-22, and Vince Young went 18-29, 270 yards, 2TD 2INT, and ran the ball 20 times for 76 yards. Not bad on the running end, but those two picks really don't help matters. At least they won though.

Colorado and Texas Tech were both ranked when Texas dominated them, but one can argue they were overrated that year. Looking over their schedules and such, it seems... what do you know, Big 12 teams that didn't have defense. Go figure.

IIRC, Oklahoma sucked ass in 2005. Am I wrong? Well sucked ass by their standards. 8-4 I believe.

Then the National Title game against USC. That was indeed a really impressive feat that he pulled off. Was awesome to watch.

But now, let's not forget powerhouses like Louisiana-Lafayette, Rice, @Mizzou (when they fucking sucked), @OK State (Suuuck - 4-7), @Baylor (Suuuck), Kansas (Suuuck), A&M, and then Colorado again in the Big 12 Championship game. Amazing. That's hard.

The most impressive win other than OSU and USC was probably Texas Tech seeing as they finished 9-3. The other teams though had either mediocre, or awful records.

I might as well go through the SEC and say any team Florida played in 06/07 sucked, and any team LSU played in 05 sucked, other than of course the one or 2 teams I'd have to admit were good to avoid complete transparency.

Mizzou was already a very solid team by then, and Kansas' defense was very strong as well. OK state had a schedule involving said Mizzou team, said CO team, K-State's double headed heisman monster (I may be mistaken i can't remember for certain if we played ou or texas that year either), as well as, of course, OU, Texas, and Texas Tech. A&M is like our Arkansas, their record is always worse than it should be due to the strength of the south, and their defense is always solid. Colorado is basically our Auburn, a slightly upgraded version of Arkansas. This is the point you are so quick to make for yourself arguing about the SEC, and so quick to dismiss when someone says it about the big 12: when you play top quality teams again and again throughout your conference season, it's a lot to ask for more than 1 big time non-conference game, and all of the teams that aren't outright championship contenders are going to look worse than they are if all you go off is the numbers and have sec cock so far down your throat you can't breathe.

2004 was a fun year. Finished 11-1, won the Rose Bowl.. all is well right? When I mentioned Jason White above, I meant he could put up better numbers than Vince Young in college. Not win a national championship. 1) Oklahoma is like..unable to win a BCS Bowl Game and 2) They ran into a buzz saw. VY lost head to head against that Oklahoma team 12-0 in 2004. Then again, I can't really brag about White right now as he had a completely shitty statline in that game (14-26, 113 yards, 2 INTs). Then again, he's no VY, right?! No. VY went 8-23, 86 yards, and ran the ball 16 times for 54 yards. Amazing numbers in a big game. Then in the game after that up against Mizzou when they won 28-20, he went 3-9, 19 yards 2 INTs, ran 5 times for 53 yards. Now there's the Vince Young we all know and love? Did he start that game? It doesn't say here in the box score that I'm looking at.

He was benched in the 2nd half. As stated earlier today, he responded by never losing another game.

Anyway, I'm rambling about his awesome performances in big games. The fact is, their 04 schedule was fun too. Besides barely beating a weak Arkansas Team (5-6) 22-20, they had a tough North Texas, Rice, Baylor, @CU, @Kansas, and such on their schedule. Their 2004 schedule though was tougher than 05 if you based it on teams being ranked at the time that they played them. Mizzou was 5-6, TTech was 8-4, A&M and OK State finished 7-5. Not stellar by any means.

Yeap, in his freshman season where he didn't start the first half of the year, he wasn't that amazing. I guess it means nothing that his only loss was to an OU team many considered among the best ever at the time (which ksu and lsu promptly proved incorrect, those 2 would've made a hell of a championship tho).

Also, nevermind the carrying to victory despite a badly sprained ankle early in the game against said ridiculously good KSU team.

Sorry, once again got caught up rambling on and on with numbers that I never produce. My bad.

Here, I'll just be a blind jackass and end my argument here: I don't like Vince Young. I think he's a shitty quarterback. THE END

That's fine for you to say about the pros, and I can disagree and yet completely see where you're coming from and how you can believe it.

However, when you're saying it about his college career, you really have to realize how stupid you look. You might as well be saying Randy Moss is better than Jerry Rice.

[Akiyama]

Titans fans really wish they got Cutler I'm sure. Also, Time of Possession isn't everything. How many games did the Pats hold the ball longer than their opponents? It can't be that many considering how quickly the Pats could score.

Also, everyone knows VY had a good year his rookie year. Maybe not statistically, but in terms of things he did. The fact is, his 2007 year makes all of the shit he did in 2006 almost meaningless. He regressed back to a guy who had no fucking clue what the hell he was doing. You can't argue that.

[Plow]

Titans fans really wish they got Cutler I'm sure. Also, Time of Possession isn't everything. How many games did the Pats hold the ball longer than their opponents? It can't be that many considering how quickly the Pats could score.

Also, everyone knows VY had a good year his rookie year. Maybe not statistically, but in terms of things he did. The fact is, his 2007 year makes all of the shit he did in 2006 almost meaningless. He regressed back to a guy who had no fucking clue what the hell he was doing. You can't argue that.

Yeap, taking his team to the playoffs while playing 9 games against other teams that made the playoffs, and 2 more against an 8-8 team in his division was terrible, fucker should've been 16-0.