Futsuno Mitama VS. Hagun/Amano

[FailureMidgard]

I'm not sure what you mean. The one Kaiten I did on JoL did 805 damage, but I had to waste 300TP on it, which I could have used on Gekko for 1200+ damage. Also, like I said I had minuetx2 and STR etudex2, how often do you get that?

With just minuets, or better yet 1 minuet and 1 etude, Gekko would do about 300-500 more than Kaiten on average at 100 TP. Because I can obtain 300TP easily in time for every SA, and Kaiten does no more damage at 300TP than 100TP, Gekko is clearly the better WS for that situation, and Futsuno's Gekkos are stronger than Amano's.

I don't want to get too deep in math off your eyeballed averages that are very likely not accurate.

Your 300TP SA Gekko does what, 1350 average?
Your 100TP no SA Kaiten does 450 average?

So 300TP SA Gekko is the same damage as 3 100TP Kaitens without SA. If you SA one of those at 100TP, then that beats your Gekko, not to mention the auto-swing damage/etc. (And why you'd save to 300tp is beyond me...you clearly don't understand the Samurai job despite owning Amano...and if you are going to say hate is an issue, then it doesn't matter what weapon you use, as you will have to hold back anyway).
Then there's the fact Kaiten's 3 100TP WSes happened in less time than your 300.

The only argument I see for Futsuno vs Amano is "you can hit the point where you have too much enmity with either, so Amano is no better because you have to hold back anyway". Which is fine...

[Contract]

The only reason Kaiten even did 805 was due to all the buffs I had, and like I said I hardly ever get lucky enough to have 2 BRDs. Also, non-SA Kaiten does 300 average I'd say, and that's only with all those buffs, without them I'd see 150-250 alot.

SA Kaiten without even just half of those buffs would do maybe 500-650, while Gekko at 100TP would still do at least 750, average of 850ish, and non-SA Gekko does 400-550. No matter what the situation is, Gekko does more than Kaiten(on high-def HNMs), and Futsuno is better for Gekko.

[Clave]

Futsuno is better for Gekko.

Can anyone provide info on this? From what I can see there is no reason why Futsuno should do better than Amano on 300% Gekkos. The STR bonus and Amano's base DMG rating pretty much balance each other out damage-wise.

[Tan]

Excuse my ignorance but people are talking about the STR boost on Futsuno, did we figure out what triggers the Latent?

[Tulun]

+8 STR when using a WS.

[Wolfknight]

I'm not sure what you mean. The one Kaiten I did on JoL did 805 damage, but I had to waste 300TP on it, which I could have used on Gekko for 1200+ damage. Also, like I said I had minuetx2 and STR etudex2, how often do you get that?

With just minuets, or better yet 1 minuet and 1 etude, Gekko would do about 300-500 more than Kaiten on average at 100 TP. Because I can obtain 300TP easily in time for every SA, and Kaiten does no more damage at 300TP than 100TP, Gekko is clearly the better WS for that situation, and Futsuno's Gekkos are stronger than Amano's.

or you could sub war and spam kaiten for overall higher damage, cause I think zerk'd katien should come somewhat close to SA atleast 650 I would hope, and 3x 650 sure beats 1x 1200 easily.

[FailureMidgard]

or you could sub war and spam kaiten for overall higher damage, cause I think zerk'd katien should come somewhat close to SA atleast 650 I would hope, and 3x 650 sure beats 1x 1200 easily.

Not to mention overwhelm...

[Contract]

On JoL, zerked Kaiten would probably do 500-700 with 2 BRDs giving you buffs, with 1 or no BRDs you'd probably see 400-600 average tops. Zerked Gekkos would do probably no less than 600, with highs of 800-900, so even /war Gekko would do more. Kaiten just really isn't good for JoL or similar HNMs.

Besides, I can WS every 60 secs for 1200+ and maybe pull hate for 5 seconds, or I can spam WS at 100 TP and pretty much tank after every WS for longer and longer each time. I prefer the former.

[FailureMidgard]

On JoL, zerked Kaiten would probably do 500-700 with 2 BRDs giving you buffs, with 1 or no BRDs you'd probably see 400-600 average tops. Zerked Gekkos would do probably no less than 600, with highs of 800-900, so even /war Gekko would do more. Kaiten just really isn't good for JoL or similar HNMs.

Besides, I can WS every 60 secs for 1200+ and maybe pull hate for 5 seconds, or I can spam WS at 100 TP and pretty much tank after every WS for longer and longer each time. I prefer the former.

Post some parses, you've already proven you have no grasp of any of this mathematically.

[Wolfknight]

On JoL, zerked Kaiten would probably do 500-700 with 2 BRDs giving you buffs, with 1 or no BRDs you'd probably see 400-600 average tops. Zerked Gekkos would do probably no less than 600, with highs of 800-900, so even /war Gekko would do more. Kaiten just really isn't good for JoL or similar HNMs.

Besides, I can WS every 60 secs for 1200+ and maybe pull hate for 5 seconds, or I can spam WS at 100 TP and pretty much tank after every WS for longer and longer each time. I prefer the former.

I spam ws fine on /war with hagun at JoL, get better tanks and etc <_<

[LeothaSamurai]

Where is Ruke when you need him...

[Kaeko]

I guess to sort of steer this argument towards what I'm personally looking for...

Is there possibly a consensus on any situation where Futsuno can beat Relic? What about against Hagun? With the various accepted subs and situational subs /WAR /THF /DRG /NIN

The math seems to indicate relic blows it out of the water on just about anything and Hagun runs nearly even with it in most situations. Would you say this is more like a novelty item or would this actually be worth something to say a SAM that wants to max out but cannot afford a Amano? It seems to come out so close it's negligable but that's with the math, not a parse.

The overall question I'm hoping to get answered is how valuable or desirable the item would be. As a mage only type myself, the best I can offer is it does indeed look really cool :O

[Veyron]

Better than Hagun, hands down in any situation. On par with Amano on Hnm due to Kaiten semi-sucking on higher defense mob where Gekko shines; but Amano will blow it away in exp.

[Ayvaen]

It must be the mathematician in me that likes to change one problem into another problem. Hopefully this'll make sense.



The 300 baseline delay difference between Hagun 6 hit and Futsuno 5 hit is kind of useless information without something to put it into perspective. 2700 (Hagun) > 2400 (Futsuno) basically means you need 1/9 less time to TP. Hagun's TP bonus can actually be considered an extra WS for every 5 weapon skills (since each WS has a 20% bonus, and 5*20% = 100%).

So the question becomes, is another WS every 5 weapon skills going to be better than another WS every 9 weapon skills, and a little more base damage and STR?

The LCM of 5 and 9 is sadly 45. So that doesn't make for a very nice number. But lets go with it anyway.

In 45 WSes...
Hagun would get 54 WSes.
Futsuno would get 50 WSes.

So the question here can be formulated as, what's better? 4 WSes or 50 WSes with an additional 9 Damage and 8 Strength? For simplicity sake, lets assume that pDIF isn't effected by a significant amount from the 8 STR (as if it is, it's effected by .01 or so, a marginal amount). In other words...

Hagun WSes ?> Futsuno WSes
4*fTP*pDIF*(fSTR+D+STR*.63) >? 50*fTP*pDIF*(1+9+8*.63)
4*(fSTR+D+STR*.63) >? 50*(10+5)
4fSTR+4D+STR*2.52 >? 750
4*16+4*75+STR*2.52 >? 750
364 + 2.52*STR >? 750
2.52*STR >? 386
Thus if STR > 386/2.52 = 153.17 then Hagun WS output > Futsuno.

Unexpected. That amount of STR is possible, but requires top-notch gear. It also doesn't take into account that Futsuno has 5% better DPS.

I'm guessing Futsuno really IS better than Hagun...if you don't take meditate into account. That messes everything up. Hagun probably is better.

[FailureMidgard]

I guess to sort of steer this argument towards what I'm personally looking for...

Is there possibly a consensus on any situation where Futsuno can beat Relic? What about against Hagun? With the various accepted subs and situational subs /WAR /THF /DRG /NIN

The math seems to indicate relic blows it out of the water on just about anything and Hagun runs nearly even with it in most situations. Would you say this is more like a novelty item or would this actually be worth something to say a SAM that wants to max out but cannot afford a Amano? It seems to come out so close it's negligable but that's with the math, not a parse.

The overall question I'm hoping to get answered is how valuable or desirable the item would be. As a mage only type myself, the best I can offer is it does indeed look really cool :O

Better than Hagun...the game is about stacking small upgrades...like I said, 3-5% better (actually, that was neglecting the 6 accuracy also...)...but honestly, that's more of an upgrade than you'll get out of Ninurta's over VBelt (or pretty much any other single item...)

I'd be very skeptical of this Kaiten/Amano comparison...the guy doesn't even understand how to maximize his damage without an Amano. Anyway, definitely not a novelty item unless the person has Amano already.

[VZX]

The 300 baseline delay difference between Hagun 6 hit and Futsuno 5 hit is kind of useless information without something to put it into perspective. 2700 (Hagun) > 2400 (Futsuno) basically means you need 1/9 less time to TP. Hagun's TP bonus can actually be considered an extra WS for every 5 weapon skills (since each WS has a 20% bonus, and 5*20% = 100%).

I think you're comparing 6 hit (6 normal swings) of Hagun vs 5 hit of Futsuno. My comparison was actually closer to what is happening in practical situation.

Instead of 6 swings, you actually have 1 hit from WS and 5 hit from normal swings.
Hence, I translate is as 5*450 + d, where d stands for the overhead of instantaneous JA/spell/delay lock after WSing. While in case of Futsuno, it's
4*480 + d

So, 6 cycle vs 7 cycle translate as :
6*(5*450 + d) = 13440 + 6d
7*(4*480 + d) = 13500 + 7d
Which is pretty close, and it's the same if the spell/JA/delay lock after WS is 1 second.

[yayaok]

Where is Ruke when you need him...

qft. where is rich and ruke?

[Amele]

I think you're comparing 6 hit (6 normal swings) of Hagun vs 5 hit of Futsuno. My comparison was actually closer to what is happening in practical situation.

Instead of 6 swings, you actually have 1 hit from WS and 5 hit from normal swings.
Hence, I translate is as 5*450 + d, where d stands for the overhead of instantaneous JA/spell/delay lock after WSing. While in case of Futsuno, it's
4*480 + d

So, 6 cycle vs 7 cycle translate as :
6*(5*450 + d) = 13440 + 6d
7*(4*480 + d) = 13500 + 7d
Which is pretty close, and it's the same if the spell/JA/delay lock after WS is 1 second.

^ I'm with vzx overall, although the exact margin will probably need to be parsed out. fortunately the 'ideal' setup for both hagun and futsuno is nearly identical, so it should be relatively easy to check which is actually better.

people questioning tachi: rana - futsuno will wreck hagun on rana, no questions there. don't know how it stacks versus amano - would depend on how the rest of your setup is built, really. (since amano has a large accuracy advantage to help with 3 hits and the strength advantage of futsuno is less prominent for rana)

all indications so far point to amano being best when kaiten is usable, whereas futsuno is best when basically all you get to do is [SA]WS (no melee) and can't really take advantage of amano's primary benefits (kaiten and 2.5x procs)

obviously this all ignores the mythic since no one really knows what it will do exactly (aftermath bonus magnitude, frequency of proc, etc.) all we can do is make educated guesses at this point.

[Thana]

Futsuno is better than hagun, no question. Yeah you may lose some moderate damage on "some" 100TP WS, but not enough to matter. Quite often you also do higher WS damage than hagun. Not to mention the overall increase in base damage while you melee.

For those who talk about meditate being better for hagun...lol. You get 20TP per swing and 20TP per tick on meditate, which makes for a perfect combination. Everytime you have meditate up you can do a self skillchain at the very least or solo light with little difficulty(W.O Shikikoyo).

As far as it out parsing or being better than amano, no way. Except for 300TP WS where it is on par or very marginally better than amano. Possibly slightly better on HNM as well, not sure on that though.

For the guy flaming Contract, "Wolfnight", you have got to be a dumbass or a gimp. You obviously don't know shit about our linkshell or sam. You must do pretty weak damage to not pull hate on JoL, even though the "goal" is not to pull hate, it's very easy to do with any tank you put on it. If you don't suck that is.

[terraflarex]

Really need to get some parses going on this asap...

As far as Gekko Amano versus Futsuno on HNMs, I could probably do some comparitive testing with Thana if he's up to it (Pretty sure he got Futsuno recently, (grats!)). I imagine our weapon skill setups would be pretty much identical, and both of our LSes are constantly fighting JoL with AV being killable and all (for now).

AFK dropping my Amano since it probably doesn't win on 300%TP Gekkos Q_Q