Futsuno Mitama VS. Hagun/Amano

[Kimkytaru]

Umm nobody seems to take care of the acc + from Amano. I mean in HNM situation, ok you may not get 5 hit setup with Futsuno but you'll hit more often and will be able to use Meat in most if not every HNM you fight with amano. Or am I missing something and suddently the +16 accurancy from Amano isnt in count anymore ?

Also the +3 dmg from Amano couple with the +16 acc will help you have more constant number on Rana if I aint mistaken.

For all those reason I still Think amano is the best GK you can get, open you a whole new set of equip to wear and new possiblity (use askar or byrnie +1 full time etc..), maybe if hachiryu body is becoming more comon than Futsuno can be really interesting.

But atm if you compare equip etc.. I still think you can do better stuff with Amano than with futsuno.

[FailureMidgard]

For those who talk about meditate being better for hagun...lol. You get 20TP per swing and 20TP per tick on meditate, which makes for a perfect combination.

You gain 160 TP from meditate. Even if Hagun "wastes" a full 20tp tic, it will still be a higher WS than the one Futsuno did. More realistically, Hagun is only wasting some part of a tick (which is still added damage in the 200-300tp range, which is a higher increase in dmg than the 100-200 range. Just because Futsuno matches up with meditate does not mean that it gets more advantage from it. The one that gets more advantage is indeed the 1 that gets more damage from free TP, which is Hagun.

As for solo skillchains, I guess it depends who you play with on how good that is. Personally, I would say at least 9/10 of my WSes chain anyway (without ever needing to wait around for a partner) in events that matter.

Is this LS for real though? IF you guys have hate issues on JoL, then that's another argument against Amano owners getting a Futsuno. Why? Because they are hate limited on JoL, so EVEN IF IT IS BETTER, IT IS IRRELEVANT BECAUSE THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO DO MORE DAMAGE. That being said, post some parses if you want people to believe you. (And include full information including accuracy %/etc). Sounds to me like this LS is rather clueless as to how to maximize damage, and is only interested in how big they can WS once per minute.

[Siralin]

You guys asking for Ruke must not have seen the thread where he sold his account and gave up his admin position.

[Aux]

You guys asking for Ruke must not have seen the thread where he sold his account and gave up his admin position.

Think that's Ryko, not Rukenshin.

Back on topic - What would be the normal TP return of a Futsuno Rana? vs a Pachio rana? Since both are 480 delay, except the latter having less STP.

[SamanosukeShiva]

21TP futsuno rana
20TP pachio rana

assuming if WS without any STP piece

am i doing this right? lol

[Starr]

Think that's Ryko, not Rukenshin.

woosh

[Amele]

Umm nobody seems to take care of the acc + from Amano. I mean in HNM situation, ok you may not get 5 hit setup with Futsuno but you'll hit more often and will be able to use Meat in most if not every HNM you fight with amano. Or am I missing something and suddently the +16 accurancy from Amano isnt in count anymore ?

Also the +3 dmg from Amano couple with the +16 acc will help you have more constant number on Rana if I aint mistaken.

For all those reason I still Think amano is the best GK you can get, open you a whole new set of equip to wear and new possiblity (use askar or byrnie +1 full time etc..), maybe if hachiryu body is becoming more comon than Futsuno can be really interesting.

But atm if you compare equip etc.. I still think you can do better stuff with Amano than with futsuno.

amano is only +1 damage after considering fstr. once you include the +wsc for 8 str, they're probably even on tachi:Rana (that said, you'd probably never use rana over kaiten with amano...) and likely ahead for y/g/k

it's not that the +16 acc doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter as much as you think it does... a sam can get very close to acc cap on all kinds of things - what the +acc lets you do is wear more of other stats (notably attack) but in general, a sam isn't missing many weaponskills on anything (and rana isn't going to be used much for hnm generally as far as early testing has shown and *certainly* not with amano)

[Vyerz]

So I guess I'm a bit late for this argument, but 25% haste with a 6hit (15% gear haste 10% hasso) will allow you to Self SC with no DA proc using Hagun. I can't really tell you which weapon is better~

Secondly. isn't there an actual calculation now for how much damage = CE cap ? if so pulling hate as a melee on JoL wouldn't be very hard because once you've hit that CE cap you're just competing with the Pld for VE, and since you have all day to hit those Epeen Ws's I'd imagine a good melee would eventually pull hate even from the best of Pld's on JoL

[FailureMidgard]

And my bad for taking a screenshot with gear I think looks good. I apologize for misleading you into thinking I regularly TP and WS in Arhat's.

But let's go over this a bit.
Playing with 3 other good melee in salvage, I can WS before or after to chain with any of them. I use TParty and can see their TP, furthermore I can see their WSes. How is it hard to either open or close a chain? There are WSes constantly going off. Occasionally a SC doesn't happen, but it's honestly rare. It isn't even rare that we randomly put in a 3step Light chain with Yuki>RR>Kasha. The window for chaining is pretty large. When a chain doesn't go off, more often than not it's because I try to open one, then the warrior has to cast Ichi and can't close in time.

And again, you prove you have no concept of how this game works. On JoL, I am not debating your hate issues at all. I am stating that IF you assume that you have hate issues, it is irrelevant if you use Hagun, Amano, or Futsuno, because you will need to hold back with all 3 to avoid pulling hate. Carrying a 2nd weapon around so you can pull hate faster on a mob you don't want to pull hate on is counter-productive. End of story.

And I guarantee you, if you actually parse 100tp Futsuno WSes vs 100tp Hagun WSes, Hagun will parse a higher WS average every time. Yes, occasionally a Futsuno WS will beat out a Hagun WS, but that's completely irrelevant and is a side-effect of the "random" pDIF calculation. I am not even debating Futsuno being better than Hagun. It quite obviously is better. But you come in here and "lol" at people who understand math because Futsuno works out prettier with Hagun. Sorry, A samurai's goal is to do damage, not have a pretty looking TP value. The meditate TP matching up means less TP is "wasted" to >100 WSes, but the thing is, even after the TP lost on Hagun, Hagun is still doing more damage with that bonus TP from meditate.

[isladar]

Keep this discussion civil; there are no exceptions to the rules of Newbie.

[Cream Soda]

You dont' want to make isladar angry... you won't like her when she's /angry

[Ayvaen]

"Yeah you may lose some moderate damage on "some" 100TP WS, but not enough to matter. Quite often you also do higher WS damage than hagun."

That's simply not true. The only time Futsuno will do more damage than Hagun's WSes is if you get a low-range pDIF value and Futsuno gets a high range. Compare the two.

At 100% with 150 STR, 2.5 pDIF, LV 5 Overwhelm, and a Gorget - Also assuming that the extra 6 ATK from the 8 STR results in a +.015 pDIF for Futsuno
Hagun: 1.19*2.5*(1.875+.1)*(16+75+150*.63) = 2.5*1.975*(185.5) = 1089.921
Futsuno: 1.19*2.515*(1.5625+.1)*(17+84+158*.63) = 2.515*1.6625*(200.54) = 997.8031

Hagun does about ~9.23% more.

I used 100% because any TP you are over 100%, like has been said before, will help Hagun WSes do more damage than any TP Futsuno is over 100% because the DMG/TP climb is higher from 200% > 300% than from 100% > 200%.

[Vyerz]

Errr, I was simply saying you only need 15% in gear to solo SC with meditate (No DA proc with a hagun) not 26%~ hasso accounts for the 10% missing haste

[Thana]

Errr, I was simply saying you only need 15% in gear to solo SC with meditate (No DA proc with a hagun) not 26%~ hasso accounts for the 10% missing haste

Show me some screenshot's!

[Ayvaen]

So, 6 cycle vs 7 cycle translate as :
6*(5*450 + d) = 13440 + 6d
7*(4*480 + d) = 13500 + 7d
Which is pretty close, and it's the same if the spell/JA/delay lock after WS is 1 second.

Your numbers were backwards
6*5*450+6d = 13500 + 6d
7*4*480+7d = 13440 + 7d

And haste will act on the delays and not on the locks, so even though things start off equal, the one with more locks (Futsuno) will be slower in the end (though not by a huge amount). There's actually a lot of reasons why even that example isn't practical.

Taking time to activate Seigan, etc. after every weapon skill will result in a practical loss of time for WSing more, there's a real advantage to WSing fewer times and doing more damage than WSing more often and doing less. Especially if you have to hit multiple macros to swap gear for your weapon skills, etc. And of course the biggest time spender for a Samurai is getting into position for Overwhelm before every WS.

Futsuno's advantage is largely placebo/mathematical fairy tales/new toy syndrome.

[FailureMidgard]

The JOL comment was made because of another jackass, like FAILURE, was trying to say because our superior DD occasionly pull hate off our superior tanks, means that our tanks suck. As another poster concured it's pretty easy thing to do. How many JOL have you done in the past week or even your ffxi career FAILURE? I surely haven't done too many and don't know how it works.

Wow, learn to read please. All of my comments about JoL are not even disagreeing with you pulling hate off your tanks. I don't know how to put this in simpler English...IF you are pulling hate, part of your stats become irrelevant. IF you are pulling hate, if anything, you should be PURPOSEFULLY LOWERING your damage. Not arguing as to which does more damage. Seriously, don't argue with me about something that I am not even disagreeing with you about. I honestly do not know the hate situation at JoL. I am not going to claim I do. Wolfknight is the one you are arguing with. I am merely stating that if your goal is to not pull hate, adding damage to a situation that you are pulling hate in is counter-productive.

Anyway, this argument is pointless. All the math (and any parse you post with all other variables constant) will have Hagun doing more dmg per WS than Futsuno, yet you argue with that even. None of us are even saying Hagun is better. We all agree that Futsuno>Hagun.

[Kaeko]

So I guess from what I'm reading, Futsuno > Hagun even though Hagun will still give you better 100TP WSs. The difference is small and not amazing, however. Futsuno cannot match relic except in the very specific situation of high D HNMs that focus on mainly WS damage, not melee damage (e.g. /THF subbing). If Tachi:Rana ends up being a very useful WS, it will benefit Futsuno the most due to TP returns.

Sound about right?

[Contract]

Errr, I was simply saying you only need 15% in gear to solo SC with meditate (No DA proc with a hagun) not 26%~ hasso accounts for the 10% missing haste

What?

[Ramzii]

What?

QFT

I have trouble sometimes self sc'ing with 22% haste and hasso up

[Vyerz]

QFT

I have trouble sometimes self sc'ing with 22% haste and hasso up

Yeah but do you have a 6-hit~ from the gear in your side bar it looks like you have a full haste build. And if you do, yeah I know it's not a 100% but with correct timing and assuming you don't miss you can still Self SC lol

And as for Kaeko's summary, that sounds about right