Newborn Baby Found Alive in Trash Can at Phoenix Middle School

[zoobernut]

No difference in an abortion and what she did, even though one is legal, and the other is not. But just because something is legal, doesn't make it morally right.

Just because one person thinks something is morally wrong does not make it morally wrong for everyone.

Also about the getting rid of abortions. When you are factoring things into your death count you forgot to factor in women who die from botched abortions when they are illegal.

[Therin]

Just because one person thinks something is morally wrong does not make it morally wrong for everyone.

Almost every ethics or philosophy professor in the country would disagree.

[eunhye]

People in Africa believe, if you have AIDs and you have sex with a virgin and shoot her up without any protection, you will be cured.

[zoobernut]

Almost every ethics or philosophy professor in the country would disagree.

How do you decide whose standard is correct? How can you say that when so many people disagree so strongly about what is moral and immoral?

Edit: In fact abortion is a perfect example of how what you said makes no sense. Egon thinks abortion is immoral and this is driven what I assume by the belief that life starts immediately with the meeting of the sperm and egg. Many people disagree and do not think it is immoral because they believe that life begins at a later time.

[Therin]

How do you decide whose standard is correct? How can you say that when so many people disagree so strongly about what is moral and immoral?

Well, generally, when you're debating whether something is moral or immoral you use this neat little convention called "logic."

[zoobernut]

But that is the thing how does logic fit into morality? The majority of people throw logic out the window precisely at the time when they start talking about what they believe to be moral or immoral.

Logic is based upon clear thinking, weighing the facts and coming to a decision based on those facts. Most people do not do any of this with respect to morals they usually base their morals on beliefs which often are based in religion or what people tell them when they are growing up.

[Correction]

No difference in an abortion and what she did, even though one is legal, and the other is not. But just because something is legal, doesn't make it morally right.

So what? Why are you riding this abortion track so hard like it was either that or dumping her baby in the garbage?

Or are you just soapboxing on a pet talking point because earlier in the thread people were talking about the various alternative choices the girl had from before the point of conception up to the moment she disposed of her newborn and it seemed like the perfect crack into which you could shove your incoherent, somewhat off-topic rambling about 'aborting babies is murder okay! Iraq War! outrage!'

Because really, leveraging the abandonment of a newborn to make cheap political statements is something I'd understand from you. Because at the end of the day we still have this baby who was thrown in a trash can by his own mother.

[fantasticdan]

the sperm argument is a really weak one
You know damn well that's a shitty parallel

So is the parallel between leaving a born baby in the trash, and an early abortion.

[Odesseiron]

I'm not entirely surprised. It's not like it is all that uncommon. It's still a terrible thing, but something I am used to seeing. What a world we live in.

A much more horrible story, also baby related:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,419502,00.html

I found myself cringing at this article. These are the kind of people that need to be taken out back and shot.

[Tovaud]

But that is the thing how does logic fit into morality? The majority of people throw logic out the window precisely at the time when they start talking about what they believe to be moral or immoral.

Logic is based upon clear thinking, weighing the facts and coming to a decision based on those facts. Most people do not do any of this with respect to morals they usually base their morals on beliefs which often are based in religion or what people tell them when they are growing up.

Ok. Let me give you an example.

Just because one person thinks something is morally wrong does not make it morally wrong for everyone.

Ok, let's say a person believes it's morally right to kill you because you will not align yourself to his way of thinking. Is the person justified in carrying out his belief?

Hint: see the Middle East for clues

And yet, in the face of the obvious moral wrong of our enemies, we have those here who believe it is morally acceptable to engage in character assassination with those who do not agree with him/her. In my mind, this mindset is exactly the same as the Islamo-fascists.

In your statement, the killer is justified in killing you even though uncommon sense states otherwise. Why would you adopt reasoning that undermines your very existence? I believe that is a definition of insanity. Such moral relativism is going to mean the death of the civilized world since the rule of law can not carry any authority because each person has the right to choose whether or not it is right to follow it with impunity.

The only reason the killer has that mindset is that he was indoctrinated from birth, overriding his normal logic.

Go ahead and stick with your moral relativism with which you were indoctrinated from birth by the public school system and the media. Just realize that our enemies in the Middle East will gladly use that to bring you to an early grave.

[zoobernut]

Ok. Let me give you an example.



Ok, let's say a person believes it's morally right to kill you because you will not align yourself to his way of thinking. Is the person justified in carrying out his belief?

Hint: see the Middle East for clues

And yet, in the face of the obvious moral wrong of our enemies, we have those here who believe it is morally acceptable to engage in character assassination with those who do not agree with him/her. In my mind, this mindset is exactly the same as the Islamo-fascists.

In your statement, the killer is justified in killing you even though uncommon sense states otherwise. Why would you adopt reasoning that undermines your very existence? I believe that is a definition of insanity. Such moral relativism is going to mean the death of the civilized world since the rule of law can not carry any authority because each person has the right to choose whether or not it is right to follow it with impunity.

The only reason the killer has that mindset is that he was indoctrinated from birth, overriding his normal logic.

Go ahead and stick with your moral relativism with which you were indoctrinated from birth by the public school system and the media. Just realize that our enemies in the Middle East will gladly use that to bring you to an early grave.

You proved my point within your argument the entire world works on moral relativity based on that understanding no single person has any more right than anyone else to declare that their morals are the correct morals. In your example I am not going to argue that the persons morals are incorrect that leads them to want to kill me however I will still defend my right to live as strongly as I can. That has no bearing on weather or not they are working within their own personal morals.

In your statement you decided to attack me personally and say I was "Indoctrinated from birth by the public school system and the media." which is a total bullshit statement.

Another great example is homosexuality or along those same lines sex acts. Many people believe homosexuality is immoral, many more people think it is not. How do you determine whose morals are the more correct morals?

[Egon]

Answer me this, what bad things would happen if abortions were illegal?

And don't say the deaths of women from botched black market abortions, if that were a legitimate argument, then some drugs would be legal to stop people from getting sick from sharing needles.

[zoobernut]

Answer me this, what bad things would happen if abortions were illegal?

And don't say the deaths of women from botched black market abortions, if that were a legitimate argument, then some drugs would be legal to stop people from getting sick from sharing needles.

This is a very strong argument for making illegal drugs legal and government controlled. We already have clinics where drug addicts can go to get new clean needles to use for illegal drugs to try to prevent them from getting sick. So yes the deaths of women from botched black market abortions still does apply as a very strong argument against making abortions illegal. At least add in those numbers to your comparison of deaths of legal versus illegal abortions.

[Roranora]

bastard children everywhere!

[Tovaud]

zoobernut, that was not a personal attack. I was also indoctrinated with those things, as was everyone else who goes through the public school system and pays attention to the media. I remember every well what I heard and was taught in school. It was a personal observation. I did shake them off and started thinking for myself though.

The point I was trying to make is that in a world of moral relativism, the end result will be anarchy because if everyone is allowed to decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong, rather than have a universal standard of morality, rule of law means nothing. That, in and of itself, is counterproductive to the existence of humanity.

I, for one, can find plenty of absolute moral standards just based on continued survival.

[zoobernut]

And my point is Tovaud that just because I disagree with you does not mean that I did not shake off the "indoctrination of schools and media" and start thinking for myself. I felt like it was an unnecessary lame statement that you put in there purely because I disagree with you.

And I believe looking at the world we do live in moral relativism. In each individual cell of the world we live in relative harmony. People have a tendency to gravitate towards others with similar moral ideals. However when you look at the world at large it is very chaotic and everyone is fighting over who has the best or most correct morals. If we did live in a world of absolute morals everyone would get along and everything would be peachy.

[Titanss]

People in Africa believe, if you have AIDs and you have sex with a virgin and shoot her up without any protection, you will be cured.

sounds about right to me

[Tovaud]

My absolute hatred of the school system, which has taught me nothing useful, and the media kinda shows eh? Nothing against you. I'm kinda pissed that I had to go through 13 years of bullshit with nothing to show for it. Sorry if that came off as an attack against you. You don't indoctrinate yourself after all. The word clearly denotes something someone else is teaching you.

So we actually agree that the moral relativity is causing a lot of the problems in the world. And that with an absolute standard, we'd be fine. I'd say we agree more than you think.

[zoobernut]

Maybe but at the same time I have no delusions in my mind that my morals are the correct ones for everyone and I do not try to impose them on others. In that same light I do not want anyone else trying to impose their morals on me. While it is a great idea that we could unite the entire world under unified moral values and put an end to violence and war I do not think it can ever happen without turning into something horrible itself.

The thing that keeps the world in balance to a point is that while everyone has their own views of the world and try to impose that on others there is an understanding that people have a right to defend themselves from others.

[Demosthenes11]

Answer me this, what bad things would happen if abortions were illegal?

you should read a little book called freakonomics (one of my favorites). If abortions were illegal, crime, both violent and non-violent, would rise about 5-10%