Mythic vs. Relic, a "Should I upgrade" Thread.

[Amele]

name one WS relic besides Mercy Strokes, that doesn't have situations where you wouldn't use it.

Gate of Tartarus!

[orson]

At this point in time I think it's fair to note if you're considering upgrading a mythic or a relic, mythics take far far more time/gil to complete.

As for the berserk enhancement on Conqueror it could be anything I think it'd be cool to see it turned into an AoE giving like 50% of the bonus of regular berserk to people around you. Honestly without the enhanced berserk Conqueror is still most likely the best GAX in the game if your War has a very high haste build.

[MillionDollarMan]

name one WS relic besides Mercy Strokes, that doesn't have situations where you wouldn't use it.

I'm talking about damage.. How fuckin stupid can people be...Yes the aftermath is nice but the WS is sad.. A relic should be 100% win.. Who the hell uses Final heaven?

[BRP]

Because it fucks over dual-wielders by forcing them to choose one. Why shouldn't someone be able to effectively use Mandau/Vajra if they're willing to put in the time/effort/money to upgrade both?

Gil(aka effort) being the only limiter of power is a recipe for disaster. It seems pretty obvious why they would want to prevent a relic + mythic combo. And if it fucks over dual-wielders, then 2-handers have been fucked from the very start.

I don't understand why Guillotine does more damage than Catastrophe.

There isn't a reason why it wouldn't. Weapon Skills don't need to have linear progression like gear or levels. People with Relics or Mythics or high level WSes don't lose the older ones. It's similar to how Thunder IV is overall better than AM II yet there are situations where you'd want to use AM II instead. And it occurs throughout WS growth not just at the end(though I wish those "utility WSes" outside an occasional GA Break WS were balanced correctly).

[Amele]

At this point in time I think it's fair to note if you're considering upgrading a mythic or a relic, mythics take far far more time/gil to complete.

As for the berserk enhancement on Conqueror it could be anything I think it'd be cool to see it turned into an AoE giving like 50% of the bonus of regular berserk to people around you. Honestly without the enhanced berserk Conqueror is still most likely the best GAX in the game if your War has a very high haste build.

they take more time; the gil cost is around the same atm. (5k@30,000 vs 6-8k@15,000 is the same order of magnitude.) if you can raise 100mil chances are pretty good you can raise 150mil.

[MillionDollarMan]

Gil(aka effort) being the only limiter of power is a recipe for disaster. It seems pretty obvious why they would want to prevent a relic + mythic combo. And if it fucks over dual-wielders, then 2-handers have been fucked from the very start.



There isn't a reason why it wouldn't. Weapon Skills don't need to have linear progression like gear or levels. People with Relics or Mythics or high level WSes don't lose the older ones. It's similar to how Thunder IV is overall better than AM II yet there are situations where you'd want to use AM II instead. And it occurs throughout WS growth not just at the end(though I wish those "utility WSes" outside an occasional GA Break WS were balanced correctly).

It still doesn't make any sense.. You don't upgrade weapons to use old WS... If you wanna justify that then you might as well justify this .

[BRP]

Most of the time the weapons are the best with old or new WSes. I'm pretty sure Claustrum is the best with Staff WSes, but there isn't much incentive to do those WSes in the first place.

[orson]

they take more time; the gil cost is around the same atm. (5k@30,000 vs 6-8k@15,000 is the same order of magnitude.) if you can raise 100mil chances are pretty good you can raise 150mil.

Um, what? Sorry but I don't see 100 mil and 150 mil even close to the same amount. 5k is a pretty good alexandrite price, I'd say they are usually closer to the same price as dynamis currency.

[Neosutra]

Um, what? Sorry but I don't see 100 mil and 150 mil even close to the same amount. 5k is a pretty good alexandrite price, I'd say they are usually closer to the same price as dynamis currency.

In rolanmart maybe, no one with an IQ above 80 is buying for more than that.

2-3k Maybe, 5k if you have a ton of gil to blow or cant add, anything more and you are just a moron.

The only reason you see such varying prices is because people just dont know what to charge for them in rolanmart. Give it about 4 months and you will see them come down to about 4k in rolanmart and 2-3k everywhere else.

Unfortunately, just like dynamis relics, you will have a large portion of the people that have no chance of fullfilling the requirements or even raising enough money that will buy up alexandrite and drive prices up, just so they can have some peace of mind that they are "working on their mythic". Its the same people that spend all their gil to get to stage 2 dynamis Relic and are still there today.

Quite honestly, I am not sure how I am going to finish burtgang. If it is going to cost me the same as Aegis, I feel a little sick thinking about it. Aegis took me around 2.5 years of being broke to do on my own. Now I have another relic quest that has alot of effort to do combined with same cost or more of Aegis. Was really hoping SE would make these really challenging to get, but not a financial burden... but oh well. That was really my focus for this thread: Is it really worth it? And if so which weapons.

[Amele]

Quite honestly, I am not sure how I am going to finish burtgang. If it is going to cost me the same as Aegis, I feel a little sick thinking about it. Aegis took me around 2.5 years of being broke to do on my own. Now I have another relic quest that has alot of effort to do combined with same cost or more of Aegis. Was really hoping SE would make these really challenging to get, but not a financial burden... but oh well. That was really my focus for this thread: Is it really worth it? And if so which weapons.

my honest recommendation to you (besides the fact that you've picked the right mythic to get, obv. if any of them is worth 150mil+ it's burtgang) is to try to find a shell that's willing to just give you all their alexandrite; either in exchange for not taking anything or.. idk, because they want to see you have a finished mythic.

with the supplement of 40-80ish/run (up to 350-400/wk probably if they go every day) you would be able to drastically slash the costs; and might even be able to collect all 30,000 in a year and a half or so without actually buying any (or get 20kish in a year and buy the rest)

obviously not everyone can do this, but if you can set up something like this you'll be able to get through the alexandrite part with alot less stress.

[Neosutra]

my honest recommendation to you (besides the fact that you've picked the right mythic to get, obv. if any of them is worth 150mil+ it's burtgang) is to try to find a shell that's willing to just give you all their alexandrite; either in exchange for not taking anything or.. idk, because they want to see you have a finished mythic.

with the supplement of 40-80ish/run (up to 350-400/wk probably if they go every day) you would be able to drastically slash the costs; and might even be able to collect all 30,000 in a year and a half or so without actually buying any (or get 20kish in a year and buy the rest)

obviously not everyone can do this, but if you can set up something like this you'll be able to get through the alexandrite part with alot less stress.

I run a salvage LS, but have a couple others upgrading with me. I would like to see my friends complete just as much as I would like too. That being said, I dont think there is a single salvage group on Pheonix server that doesnt have at least one person upgrading and/or are interested in just giving away.

I will probably be able to get 1/3rd of it done through my groups and friends, that thats still 20k drites to pay for. But oh well, what are goals if not high reaching.

[Ahlah]

Nirvana is really nothing more than a pretty solo toy. I don't understand why ppl get so excited about free Fenrir or Garuda outside solo context. Physical bloodpact is more MP efficient in 90% situations and Netherblast still deals less damage even with MAB+20. It can be quite useful if Avatar double attack/enhanced att + acc also affect physical BP, but SMN still need to gain sufficient TP to use Garland of Bliss in the first place.

Aymur on the other hand, has huge potential if used right. It's the only 1h Mythic weapon that can be paired with another strong multihit weapon. Aymur will also turn Amigo Sabotender into a crazy killing machine if the enhance "Sic" effect removes Sic recast. Amigo will be able gain TP faster and spam 1000 needles.

[frodnonnag]

Nirvana is really nothing more than a pretty solo toy. I don't understand why ppl get so excited about free Fenrir or Garuda outside solo context.

shits situational, i'm a career summoner and i love all the tweaks this could give me to my job. -4 perp means a little more to me than sitting there with a garuda not eating up my mp. it makes MP management alot easier over time.

Physical bloodpact is more MP efficient in 90% situations and Netherblast still deals less damage even with MAB+20.

we have no other measurable MAB gear for our avatars and you dismiss it before anyone even gets one to parse it.

It can be quite useful if Avatar double attack/enhanced att + acc also affect physical BP,

untested but i have no doubt the acc/atk will effect physical rage pacts

but SMN still need to gain sufficient TP to use Garland of Bliss in the first place.

ic wing, dusty wing, /sam, shikikyo, opo-opo necklace... in a zerg fight to pop the ws once, there is no need to melee something to build tp.

Aymur on the other hand, has huge potential if used right. It's the only 1h Mythic weapon that can be paired with another strong multihit weapon. Aymur will also turn Amigo Sabotender into a crazy killing machine if the enhance "Sic" effect removes Sic recast. Amigo will be able gain TP faster and spam 1000 needles.

so you are complaining about the solo qualities in the smn weapon, then attempting to prove the worth of bst's weapon? you should probably just stop talking, or atleast admit that most every new mythic weapon has stats that appeal to players of that job.

[ninjafox]

I think the easiest fix to Claustrum would be to add 'Auto-Regain' to it.

[Max™]

I think the easiest fix to Claustrum would be to add 'Auto-Regainga' to it.

Fixed that for ya.

[Ahlah]

shits situational, i'm a career summoner and i love all the tweaks this could give me to my job. -4 perp means a little more to me than sitting there with a garuda not eating up my mp. it makes MP management alot easier over time.

If you are a smart SMN you won't be making this comment. Unless you want to pay 150mil for a toy that allows you to solo without resting, the best way to conserve MP over time is to dismiss avatar after each BP and rest for MP. And pls do your LS a favour, don't keep Garuda out to feed TP to HNM.

we have no other measurable MAB gear for our avatars and you dismiss it before anyone even gets one to parse it.

Do you even know how MAB works?

untested but i have no doubt the acc/atk will effect physical rage pacts
ic wing, dusty wing, /sam, shikikyo, opo-opo necklace... in a zerg fight to pop the ws once, there is no need to melee something to build tp.

Wow just Wow. Do you even know what Zerg fight is? So you do everything you just mention every 5-10mins for an aftermath effect that lasts no more than 1-3mins and pray for DA to proc on physical BP that has a recast timer of 1min?

so you are complaining about the solo qualities in the smn weapon, then attempting to prove the worth of bst's weapon? you should probably just stop talking, or atleast admit that most every new mythic weapon has stats that appeal to players of that job.

Do you even know what you are talking about. Unlike BLU, Amigo's 1000 needles can't be resisted - not even HNM. It means if a BST gets lucky, Amigo will ditch out 1k hateless damage every 1-2 mins depending on how fast she gains TP. Jugpets are also ideal for kited fight because they are able to land hits even when the target is moving. Not to mention Primal Rend is a magical WS which can't miss and can be used for skillchain purpose.

[Neosutra]

shits situational, i'm a career summoner and i love all the tweaks this could give me to my job. -4 perp means a little more to me than sitting there with a garuda not eating up my mp. it makes MP management alot easier over time.


we have no other measurable MAB gear for our avatars and you dismiss it before anyone even gets one to parse it.


untested but i have no doubt the acc/atk will effect physical rage pacts


ic wing, dusty wing, /sam, shikikyo, opo-opo necklace... in a zerg fight to pop the ws once, there is no need to melee something to build tp.



so you are complaining about the solo qualities in the smn weapon, then attempting to prove the worth of bst's weapon? you should probably just stop talking, or atleast admit that most every new mythic weapon has stats that appeal to players of that job.

Because claustrum's chance to double damage carries over to BPs too right? You are grasping at straws.

1. Melee smn fucking sucks.

2. No the buffs will NOT carry over to avatar, any buffs that do are always stated on weapon/equipment.

3. And extra -1 perp is NOT worth 150 million gil and all the time and effort. You would get more MP management from spamming spirit taker with bahamut staff than spamming that damned def down WS to maintain your aftermath. You would actually get a LOWER mp return using that weapon than bahamut staff with spirit taker.

4. Avatar nuking sucks, and 20MAB wont change that.

[Fwahm]

It's stated on the weapon that aftermath will affect Avatars >.>;

[Neosutra]

It's stated on the weapon that aftermath will affect Avatars >.>;

Says that on otherWiki, anyone have a pic to back this up? Would still be less mp efficient to spam that WS than spirit taker (not to mention avatar meleeing is already weak, adding double attack wont change that).

You're not going to melee HNM, and there is no reason to leave your avatar out feeding TP to the HNM for the extra -1 perp.

In merits, for you to maintain spamming BPs, you will need a WS that replaces MP (spirits), so you wont be able to maintain the aftermath.

It is a useless toy.

[Kairos]

not even HNM. It means if a BST gets lucky, Amigo will ditch out 1k hateless damage every 1-2 mins depending on how fast she gains TP. Jugpets are also ideal for kited fight because they are able to land hits even when the target is moving. Not to mention Primal Rend is a magical WS which can't miss and can be used for skillchain purpose.

There's a few things wrong here. Its not hateless damage really because if amigo is spamming that, he will die, i've seen it many times doing kirin with smn/bst shells. Jugpets are not the only things that can land hits while a target is moving, all pets can do that. Garland of bliss is also a magical weaponskill that does light based damage and in addition adds a defense down stackable with other defense debuffs, and it can also be used to make light.

I think everyone who's come across nirvana tries really hard to make it look bad when its not. The only thing wrong is the fact that most players get on summoner and never do any techniques other than summon > bloodpact > release. Its no fault of the weapon that using that strategy 100% of the time, you don't get any benefit out of the -perpetuation. There are other things that come into play with the perpetuation and magic attack bonus +20 that's on the staff.

Mainly your merit pacts are really good for damaging tough high level enemies and joining in magic bursts. 1024 is the typical number when i use merit pacts on anything, and it will always do that much unless the mob has huge MDB or some direct magic damage reduction. Using Predator claws 90% of the time is a choice, not a necessity of playing smn well. Those merit pacts will land, hit consistant numbers, can't miss, and can be Magic Bursted on most things in the game. We just have different play styles, because I only default to predator claws in the case that my merit pacts won't work.


The -4 perpetuation and MAB+20 also effects spirits greatly as well. They have no innate MAB, so adding that would raise their damage as well. The perpetuation on that staff along with all the other -perpetuation gear will allow you to obtain free spirits which presents a problem to adding any more -perpetuation in itself. I'd be grateful for that, because I don't see SE allowing a free magic casting pet for no cost. The staff is trying to appeal to all facets of the summoner job, and frankly the physical bloodpact part of summoner is fine where it as.


edit: I've never encountered any resistance to leaving my avatar between bloodpacts to boost merit pact damage, what is everyone worried about the mob getting TP for?