Mythic vs. Relic, a "Should I upgrade" Thread.

[Jedimasta]

Well this thread just got jacked.

[Norellicus]

What the fuck, lol...

[Lordwafik]

oh wow

[Neosutra]

What the shit..

Oh, but wanted to add one thing:

Elmer posted that tp% may effect potency and not duration of aftermath. This could mean the occasionally attacks twice is not a standard 50%, but rather an incremented % based on TP. For example 15% DA for 100tp, 25% for 200, 50% for 300 (or better who knows) and 10,20,30 acc/attck for the corresponding TP.

Wonder how this would effect people's opinions of mythic if the occasionally attack twice is much lower than expected unless used at 300TP.

[Fcube]

come on now lol. Last time i fought Kirin was something like 8 months ago. Its been all sea,ground, ZNM, Einherjar, and dynamis for me lately. As far as the 300tp goes, you don't need it. With a 5/5 merit pact you hit 1024 right out of the box and about 1150 with 3-4 hots worth of tp.

Seriously? With 5/5 Magic attack and acc you get 1024 always on kirin?

[Fiendishone]

It's all about the Death Penalty.


Latent effect: Shouting "BOOM HEADSHOT"


It's a handheld friggin canon yo! Of course I am going to have one!

[Nameless]

Add in another march there and see how the haste adds up the attacks. Who the hell xps w/o 2 brds?

It far from destroys it.

You realize liberator drk can also stack on haste right? Apoc haste is 10%, but most drk can get 19-22% haste in gear without apoc (speed belt, dusk +1 etc), and I hope you know that apoc haste is equip haste, which means if you are comparing elite to elite, you are only getting 3% of the 10% bonus. Yes that you can equip 7% less haste and stack on str, att, DA or whatever, but what can you stack to give 50% DA? Nothing.

End of story. Not to mention with the delay liberator has, it can reach 5 hit build naturally with some store TP gears, and with 50% DA, it is like ws every 3 attack rounds, stacking with march march you got a semi zerg. There is really no comparison on damage output if you have played drk.

[Neosutra]

You realize liberator drk can also stack on haste right? Apoc haste is 10%, but most drk can get 19-22% haste in gear without apoc (speed belt, dusk +1 etc), and I hope you know that apoc haste is equip haste, which means if you are comparing elite to elite, you are only getting 3% of the 10% bonus. Yes that you can equip 7% less haste and stack on str, att, DA or whatever, but what can you stack to give 50% DA? Nothing.

End of story. Not to mention with the delay liberator has, it can reach 5 hit build naturally with some store TP gears, and with 50% DA, it is like ws every 3 attack rounds, stacking with march march you got a semi zerg. There is really no comparison on damage output if you have played drk.

Where are you getting 22% haste?

Also, we dont know if the DA is 50% yet, as Elmer's post suggested the potency of the aftermath is effected by TP. You may just have a 100mil gil mythic that has 10 less base damage, 5-7% less equip haste, no double damage proc, and less acc than apoc 90% of the time (I am guessing 10/20/30 acc/attack based on TP but who the fuck knows).

This isnt an open and shut case until the mythics are out, and no matter how certain you are, no one will know till we start testing. 4-5 haste with double march + double damage + 10 base damage + 20 constant acc is a fucking shit storm of awesome. Add in the fact that you can full time hasso with the drain on WS and "I" believe apoc will destroy liberator (especially if the DA rate is less than 50% for lower TP).

[Nameless]

turban 5%, homam leg feet 6%, speed belt 6%, dusk glove +1 4% = 21%, and 22% if you go out of your way and put blitz on, which is not bad when you are in high haste situation and cap on accuracy like you said. Equipment haste caps at 25%, and apoc's 10% counts as equip haste. Therefore, it has really limited effect.

And I know it is probably not yet determined that it is a 50% DA. However, when you wrote that, you were thinking that even if it is 50% it will still lose to apoc. It is only not long ago that ppl started to think maybe the DA % goes by tp, thanks to Elmer.

But in the end, if it is 50% DA rate, apoc, or any of the old relics won't come close to mythics.

[Nameless]

And since you like to think 3-5% haste means alot when it stacks high (the concept has changed since they nerfed the cap to 80%), let's go with it. 80% for apoc and 513 delay means you swing 35 times in 60 sec. 76% for liberator and 528 delay means you swing 42 times. Assuming both are 6 hit build, so you got almost 6 ws for apoc, and 7 for liberator. Not to mention insurgency's damage output is alraedy higher than cata.

And this is at extreme high haste situation, which obviously favors apoc due to haste. However, such situation can only happen every 4:10 when LR is up. Therefore, realistically, with march march and hasso, you are looking at 70% haste vs 66%. In that case, 23 hits in 60 sec for apoc, 31 hits in 60 sec for liberator, and 4 ws vs 5 ws. Again, not even close. Counting the base damage and the fact that apoc hit harder per hit, I estimate that the DA need to be lower than 30% for the two to be equal. All these is not counting the augement absorb, which god knows what it can do.

Go figure.

[Neosutra]

You're leaving out the fact that you wouldnt be able to full time hasso with liberator. Take away that constant +10% haste and recalculate just how much DA you would need the liberator to have to match apoc.

Add in the new revelation that the DA may be incremental and liberator has a strong chance of failing.

This is speculation on both sides, but assuming that a liberator drk will be able to get away with full hasso on a weapon that "may" da 50% of the time and spamming a decent WS is BS. The difference between the two will be more of a comparison of 10-15% haste difference with hasso + the other benefits of apoc. I think it will be close, but we will see. And if they are close, then apoc wins for survivability (unless absorbs do some craziness).

[Nameless]

Alot of apoc drks now a day /nin for events, I personally know a few. Not saying that I agree with the /nin cuz I think it is way too conservative and I believe /sam can offer alot of defense (tanked sky god with /sam a few times), but it just shows you the survivebility arguement is lame.

Draining 350 HP (on a 700 cata) isn't going to save you from being one shot by some HNM (which on the other hand 3rd eye will sometimes save you from that, so your full time hasso as apoc drk cuz of cata giving you survivebility failed). And during merit and nyzul and salvage? hasso full time baby!

[Neosutra]

Alot of apoc drks now a day /nin for events, I personally know a few. Not saying that I agree with the /nin cuz I think it is way too conservative and I believe /sam can offer alot of defense (tanked sky god with /sam a few times), but it just shows you the survivebility arguement is lame.

Draining 350 HP (on a 700 cata) isn't going to save you from being one shot by some HNM (which on the other hand 3rd eye will sometimes save you from that, so your full time hasso as apoc drk cuz of cata giving you survivebility failed). And during merit and nyzul and salvage? hasso full time baby!

Was talking mostly the comparison of apoc/liberator in events such as meriting/nyzul/salvage where the drain effect is -very- helpeful. As for HNMs, I am not really familiar with how well either would do in comparison.