A new look at Treasure Hunter

[Sonomaa]

in my experience nikkeis and galkas have the best TH, followed by scottish tarus in belly shirts, though his last drop rate was eh. Mithras are best after, except michaera who has to be charged to have TH take affect and works best on small manned stuff but isnt greater than a non-thf with a pebble. After that its followed by hume males and regular tarus, elvaan males are always dead last though we havent tested elvaan females.
Our hume female sample size is much smaller and claims that TH affects his drops when he is on SAM.


(did what I say make sense? of course not. My experience still goes back to something said a long time ago after the first TH4 came around in my old LS. TH seems to primarily add additional slots to the drop rate, it doesnt necessarily add extra chances for stuff to drop in a lot, but extra slots to drop said items)

[Lampoon]

I always thought that Re/Ex items have a pre-set percentile drop rate and no amount of TH has any affect on randomizer responsible for how often it drops. Of course there also non-Re/Ex items who can be improved by TH based on again a preset amount of drops per monster (i.e. can drop 1~3 Beehive Chips per kill)

[Sonomaa]

I always thought that Re/Ex items have a pre-set percentile drop rate and no amount of TH has any affect on randomizer responsible for how often it drops. Of course there also non-Re/Ex items who can be improved by TH based on again a preset amount of drops per monster (i.e. can drop 1~3 Beehive Chips per kill)

fafhoggs that drop dragon talons and one rare/ex item disprove this however. I think adding TH adds additional slots for more items to drop.

[Leknaat]

Here's some TH data that was printed in a Japanese FFXI guide. Unfortunately it doesn't cover TH with the bonuses from hands and knife.

Bohyada Bark Spiders - 100
TH0 NIN/WAR - Web 14, B.Seals 6. K.Seals 7, Keys 9
TH1 NIN/THF - Web 13, B.Seals 5, K.Seals 6, Keys 7
TH2 THF/NIN - Web 18, B.Seals 4, K.Seals 6, Keys 7

Labyrinth Lizards in Crawler's Nest - 100
TH0 NIN/WAR - Tails 100, Eggs 104, Hide 69
TH1 NIN/THF - Tails 100, Eggs 211, Hide 90
Th2 THF/NIN - Tails 100, Eggs 278, Hide 97

The lizard tails are kind of an interesting and odd result :/

[Lampoon]

fafhoggs that drop dragon talons and one rare/ex item disprove this however. I think adding TH adds additional slots for more items to drop.

You're talking about placeholder items, right? That still means they go off a % based system which determins if something's gonna drop or its placeholder.

[Gaea]

Here's some TH data that was printed in a Japanese FFXI guide. Unfortunately it doesn't cover TH with the bonuses from hands and knife.

Bohyada Bark Spiders - 100
TH0 NIN/WAR - Web 14, B.Seals 6. K.Seals 7, Keys 9
TH1 NIN/THF - Web 13, B.Seals 5, K.Seals 6, Keys 7
TH2 THF/NIN - Web 18, B.Seals 4, K.Seals 6, Keys 7

Labyrinth Lizards in Crawler's Nest - 100
TH0 NIN/WAR - Tails 100, Eggs 104, Hide 69
TH1 NIN/THF - Tails 100, Eggs 211, Hide 90
Th2 THF/NIN - Tails 100, Eggs 278, Hide 97

The lizard tails are kind of an interesting and odd result :/

Lizards will be because they can drop multiples of the same item ><

[Gaea]

fafhoggs that drop dragon talons and one rare/ex item disprove this however. I think adding TH adds additional slots for more items to drop.

Wow, I never thought about that, but that's a very very good point. Is there any instance where someone can confirm without a doubt that Treasure Hunter adds another slot for an item?

On a more common mob for example, let's say you can usually only get one snorkel from a mudkip, but with Treasure Hunter, two can drop. You would have to make sure positively without a doubt that only ONE snorkel can drop without Treasure Hunter and that its Treasure Hunter itself that's giving it the ability to do so.

If this is true, then that could explain why Treasure Hunter seems to do NOTHING on items that can only drop once, specifically off of monsters that can only drop that one item, and why you would HAVE to get TH2 to get any kind of bonus.

The wording of both treasure hunters is pretty vague "Increases chance of getting items" but would suggest it only increases an item's drop rate.

I think this would be pretty easy to prove, though. As far as Fafnir, all you'd have to do is kill one without a THF or /THF until you get drops you theorized you couldn't get without at least TH1, right? HAHA, yeah I know, like that's gonna happen But I'm sure there are more common monsters we can prove or disprove this on. Anyone know of any?

[Toksyuryel]

500 crawlers never dropped more than 1 silk, still have to get around to doing the other 500 at some point but I'd say they probably can't drop more than 1 normally, that'd be a good place to check.

EDIT: Just a reminder, I am referring to the crawlers in West Sarutabaruta [S]. I have not tested any other crawlers.

[Lampoon]

Just wanted to elaborate on what Sonomaa said.

Look at Mee Deggi and Quu Domi as example of an NM that has a place holder item. Both Knuckles and Sword don't drop if the respective re/ex item drops. Which explains why TH doesn't really add an extra slot in a situation like that. It could also be that that's how these NMs drop table is designed and work differently for other things.

[Amele]

Just wanted to elaborate on what Sonomaa said.

Look at Mee Deggi and Quu Domi as example of an NM that has a place holder item. Both Knuckles and Sword don't drop if the respective re/ex item drops. Which explains why TH doesn't really add an extra slot in a situation like that. It could also be that that's how these NMs drop table is designed and work differently for other things.

what about situations where an nm already has 10 slots of possible drops?

[Toksyuryel]

I personally believe that TH has no effect in situations like that, but it's never really been tested (as if you're going to throw them away after you get them). Maybe try poisonhand?

[Gaea]

what about situations where an nm already has 10 slots of possible drops?

Oh, I know what you mean. I actually addressed this issue. Rather than link I'll just quote.

Since two of the drops are 100%, you have to try to guess if it's doing something like the following.

Let's say, like other drops in the game, each item in the pool here has a set rarity value. In this case we'll say about 1.5265% (4/256) because we want to try to give a somewhat equal chance for each item to drop. In order for this to work the system would have to have a predefined priority order for each item that gives one item a SLIGHTLY higher advantage than another.

Let's theorize that specific order is Bodb's Crown, Ea's Dastanas, Freyr's Ledelsens, Phobos's Mask, Phobos's Cuirass, Tsukikazu Haidate, Bodb's Robe.

I made the robe last because that's the piece you are having trouble with.

Now, You kill LBC, it's time to see what you get.
The first of your two guaranteed drops gets randomed for.
In thise case Bodb's Crown at 4/256. However the random came up with a value between 5-256 so NO DROP! Let's go to the next item in the list. Ea's Dastanas. Random number comes up 3! DROP! *YAY* The other items won't even be checked!

Second guaranteed drop. Same process.
Bodb's Crown MISS
Ea's Dastanas MISS
Freyr's Ledelsens MISS
Phobos's Mask MISS
Phobos's Cuirass MISS
Tsukikazu Haidate MISS
Bodb's Robe MISS

(Repeat because we missed and we're supposed to get a drop. Remember we only have 1.5% chance of getting a hit.
Bodb's Crown MISS
Ea's Dastanas MISS
Freyr's Ledelsens MISS
Phobos's Mask MISS
Phobos's Cuirass MISS
Tsukikazu Haidate HIT!
Bodb's Robe **Not checked again because we got a winner**

This is just an idea of why to explain why some items might be more common than other. It's simply just a design flaw that's trying to use existing game mechanics to generate a guaranteed two drops. However, its hard to detect because each item has such a low % of winning before another item, that it's likely that it goes through this random process a few times, statistically missing all 7 items several times and repeating the process until gets a hit. Stastically, you could go through the entire process 13 times and get nothing but misses and get a "guaranteed" hit on the 14th time because of "statistics". However, it could miss every item in 14 cycles, or it could hit the first item in the first cycle.

There would be no way for us to realistically guess which order these items are in even with a really, really really large data set. If anything we might be able to guess which two items would be first. In a huge dataset that proves the order I randomly created here, Double crowns would be the most common item in a huge data set.

This theory itself could be proved if we were able to prove that a specific chariot has a higher double drop value on a specific item for everyone across every server. However, at 4/256*4/256 you are talking about a dataset that can prove something within about 2/100ths of a single percentage point.

So, this sytem, while some what flawed by design, could suggest why your item actually is "technically" more rare. In two cycles of trying to get a hit, there will be 6 other items checked twice, before the one at the bottom (or near the bottom) of the list gets checked twice. That could be your item! QQ

To apply this to your example.

Item Priority Kote -> Knuckles.


Let's give Kote a drop rate of 16/256 (6.25%) Knuckles a drop rate of 224/256 (87.5%)


I'm being nice and saying that Kote is checked first and I'm really just guessing at these numbers based on estimated drop rates.

Kote 16/256 -> MISS
Knuckles 224/256 -> MISS

GET = Nothing

This is pretty unlikely as it seems almost impossible not to get at least the knuckles.

Realistically what would be happening is
Kote 16/256 -> MISS
Knuckles 224/256 -> GET

Another claim
Kote 16/256 -> MISS
Knuckles 224/256 -> GET

And another claim
Kote 16/256 -> GET
Knuckles 224/256 -> Not Checked.

In otherwords, if you are going to have to more than one item in the same place holder slot, then one item will likely have some kind of priority over another item.

The reason I put Kote first is because if Knuckles had a 90ish % drop rate, then Kote would have to have a much HIGHER % drop rate than 6% just to comensate for the few times it ever even gets checked (As much as 50% or 128/256). Of course, that could be how its done and we get the illusion of 6% because Knuckles are always checked first. To test the order of their priority, we'd also have to collect data on how many times neither of these items drop.

Unlike my example with the chariots, neither of these drops is 100%, so they are only each checked once.

As far as the issue where "oh no that's a lot of work for 100% drops, you have to consider how rarely monsters that have 100% drops with items that share the same place holder. Salvage bosses, Odin, HNMs, and Tier 3 ZNMs aren't exactly killed by the thousands each day.

[DancingEdge]

Is Gaea a chick?
If so where is this purported naked picture?

[Amele]

Oh, I know what you mean. I actually addressed this issue. Rather than link I'll just quote.

you obviously didn't know what I meant. because salvage bosses have two slots.

try a ks99 or something.

[Toksyuryel]

KS99 = Armory Crate, which SE has already confirmed to be unaffected by Treasure Hunter.

[Amele]

KS99 = Armory Crate, which SE has already confirmed to be unaffected by Treasure Hunter.

it was just the first thing that came to mind with 10 actual slots. although it lends credence to sono's idea if there are no worldspawn nm's with 10 drop slots.

[Wizerd]

I've seen Sky gods and Fafnir both drop 11 items at a time. Let's see, a Suzaku example that I can think of:

Seal of Suzaku
Antarctic Wind
Abjuration 1
Abjuration 2
Suzaku's Scythe
Suzaku's Sune-Ate
Venomous Claw
Damascene Cloth
Crystal
Crystal
Crystal

I realize that includes 3 crystals, which may be an exception to the rule, but it's still 11 drops. Oddly, the drop that autosorts always seems to be a synth material, not a crystal..

[Gaea]

Is Gaea a chick?
If so where is this purported naked picture?

It's um.. a really old picture I took for someone I met on the internet like an idiot that they sent to a bunch of people in a chatroom I hung out in. After that point, I actually didn't care who saw it. I'm 28 years old now and I was um... 22 in the picture.

It's not that great of a picture and I'm not that attractive. I don't even have it anymore, or at least until I replace my computer's motherboard.

Besides all that I want to point out I'm still working on the topic of the thread. I'm sorting through multiple data sets that I've been sent or linked to, as well as conducting some small scale tests of my own to confirm the potential accuracy of the larger scale datasets I'm sifting through.

Please be patient. Tuesday is a very busy day for me with work, Einherjar, Dynamis, and trying to get freakin Cockatrice to drop for Rydia in FF4DS. JESUS CHRIST WHY THE HELL CAN'T THERE BE SOME PLACE I CAN FORCE THESE WITH SIRENS?

Furthermore, if anyone's interested in making some extra cash on the side and will do almost anything for money, I have a job for you:
http://ami.calcobrena.com/2008/09/pl...rah-palin.html

Thanks. Ciao!

[zantes]

If it jumps from 50% to 100% how does this explain stuff like Sewer Syrup dropping the ring only about 90-95% of the time <_<? The specific behaviors of that NM's drop has always kind of stuck out to me.

100% statistically is not the same as 100%.

[fishstix]

Oddly, the drop that autosorts always seems to be a synth material, not a crystal..

It's interesting to note, but don't find it too odd. In dynamis, the synth materials are (always?) force autosorted first. It leads me to believe there's a priority of force sorted items. Might be a clue in unlocking the TH secret :3