I'd expect this from someone like Stanislav, but SapereAude...?

[Valisk]

This is the dumbest fucking argument ever. In any position, you are rewarded based on the amount of work and responsibility that position requires of you. If you are a supervisor, it is your job to supervise, and you get paid more for doing that. Same shit here- you take on the extra responsibility and work of being a leader, and you get extra compensation for it. And in both situations, individuals who go the extra mile are rewarded for it, with bonus compensation and/or promotion offers (i.e. if you are an exemplary member and demonstrate leadership skills, you just might be offered a sack! oh my!)

EDIT: an entire page went by while I was typing this...... fuck

Extra compensation and 25M discounts for select members don't add up. That's a bit over the top. I don't know SA's LS structure but to be a dominant LS like they are, everyone has to be skilled and have high attendance. If a member doesn't show both, I don't think they will make it past the trial or first couple months w/e. Now is there such a huge discrepancy that the sack holders do 25M worth more than other members? Or are they put in place just to be more organized? If it's the formor, then they need new members. If it's the latter, then the rules are unfair. Which is fine if that's what works for them.

[Shuemue]

He's simply saying, "You reap what you sew."

[Kohan]

I already said before, these people who don't agree with us are in favor of Socialist/Communist.

I really don't know the issue honestly, maybe people like everyone to be equal or at least their RL sucks and wish they'd get out of their jobs that pay minimum wage and figure why enforce RL onto FFXI, make everyone equal regardless if people think more.

Again, if people think they are just stuck in a bad situation and can't really do much, blah blah poor this, sobbing that...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Gardner

If he can do it, anyone can. Don't be a sheep...

I find this to be an incredibly amusing post.

Chris Gardner's story is amazing, and I've heard the movie based on it is great (I haven't seen it), but saying "if he can do it, anyone can" is rather silly. Not anyone can meet an extremely rich person, strike up a little conversation, and soon thereafter get a few lucky breaks. The reason his story is so remarkable is because of how very unlikely it is, and that a lot of people dreamily wish they were the person "in the right place at the right time."

That's not to say that determination is unimportant, but to act as if all that's stopping someone in poverty is their own willingness to succeed is foolish. It ignores the abundant problems with society, particularly the discrimination against people with an unimpressive job history (e.g., someone who worked at Taco Bell for ten years won't be hired by a major corporation even if they're brilliant), health problems (which are too abundant amongst the impoverished, particularly due to a lack of insurance), and so on, so forth.

Once again using the example of Gardner, such an incredibly tiny amount of people will go before a very open-minded potential employer that it can't be argued as if everyone could have that luck. They can't. There aren't enough successful people in the world for one thing, and few of them would give any "commoner" the time of day.

Fun facts: I have led both on jobs in reality and in FFXI, and I worked my way from poverty and poor jobs into a line of work that many people dream of having, yet I would never, ever, ever agree with you. It is not that simple, and it's in fact unsympathetic to the people who are trying their hardest yet get screwed at every turn.

[Zosi]

I just think leading shit in this game is incredibly easy. If you think otherwise, sky must be a fucking maze to you...

I think otherwise, and have no problem finding my way around sky. There's a difference between recognizing the difficulty of leadership and not being able to do it. Not everyone finds it easy or fun, or jumps at the opportunity.

[Lampoon]

In a sea of posts in relation to sharing information, I have only one questions. Have they even defeated PW yet? Because if they didn't or failed, then why are we arguing?

[Valisk]

In a sea of posts in relation to sharing information, I have only one questions. Have they even defeated PW yet? Because if they didn't or failed, then why are we arguing?

Because when you fail, you learn nothing from your mistakes or experience.

[Niki]

I just think leading shit in this game is incredibly easy. If you think otherwise, sky must be a fucking maze to you...

I dont think its hard if you can deal with making decisions that aren't making everyone happy, but i think its very time consuming. All 3 leader of my LS are on call 24/7.

[Shuemue]

Reap what you sow.

Not sew.

Unless we're talking knitting.

Wow, a typo. Well done.

btw I'd like 4 of the jelly donuts thanks

[Questionable]

Questionable, why the hell should i give a rat's flying butt about some dude on Wikipedia? There are people who actually have done something for and with society rather than kept being revered as a saint on some message board?

and yes, I've read "The Pursuit of Happyness" and it reads like Barack Obama's memoirs: flat, no substance, and not even a good story, before you even remotely jump on that.

and i would agree with Khalil. Leading things is easy, it's the idiots that make it hard.

I never said it was hard to me, but compared to what most people do in game, it is hard. Most idiots or sheep stand around waiting for "leader's" command to tell them what to do, what job to bring, what spells to cast, etc etc. If you know this, then go lead a shell and give everyone that just waits for what you tell them to do, the same amount of loot as you would get and see if that makes you super happy.

[Lampoon]

Because when you fail, you learn nothing from your mistakes or experience.

Except the fact that your super secret strategy didn't help you win. Which would result in a "lol" from community because you thought you were better than everyone else.

We should let them try it their way and if and when they win, grill them to share post-fact, not at this point in time.

[Questionable]

I find this to be an incredibly amusing post.

Chris Gardner's story is amazing, and I've heard the movie based on it is great (I haven't seen it), but saying "if he can do it, anyone can" is rather silly. Not anyone can meet an extremely rich person, strike up a little conversation, and soon thereafter get a few lucky breaks. The reason his story is so remarkable is because of how very unlikely it is, and that a lot of people dreamily wish they were the person "in the right place at the right time."

That's not to say that determination is unimportant, but to act as if all that's stopping someone in poverty is their own willingness to succeed is foolish. It ignores the abundant problems with society, particularly the discrimination against people with an unimpressive job history (e.g., someone who worked at Taco Bell for ten years won't be hired by a major corporation even if they're brilliant), health problems (which are too abundant amongst the impoverished, particularly due to a lack of insurance), and so on, so forth.

Once again using the example of Gardner, such an incredibly tiny amount of people will go before a very open-minded potential employer that it can't be argued as if everyone could have that luck. They can't. There aren't enough successful people in the world for one thing, and few of them would give any "commoner" the time of day.

Fun facts: I have led both on jobs in reality and in FFXI, and I worked my way from poverty and poor jobs into a line of work that many people dream of having, yet I would never, ever, ever agree with you. It is not that simple, and it's in fact unsympathetic to the people who are trying their hardest yet get screwed at every turn.

On your last paragraph, what are you talking about... Jesus, I'm sorry if everyone that on the bad end of the pole is lumped together with all the slackers and sheep, but I'm referring to those who fucking smoke weed and dropped out of HS to work at Taco Bell then bitch and moan and get angry at the CEO/executives who drive Bentley to work. If you work at Taco Bell, NO YOU DO NOT GET A BENTLEY.

[Khalil]

I dont think its hard if you can deal with making decisions that aren't making everyone happy, but i think its very time consuming. All 3 leader of my LS are on call 24/7.

Damn, lol. Not saying that's a bad thing but quite a big expectation for your leaders. But by the look of your front page, it works for you guys so all the power.

[Lampoon]

I'm waiting for someone to mention Hitler... c'mon people, snap to!

[Emorej]

On your last paragraph, what are you talking about... Jesus, I'm sorry if everyone that on the bad end of the pole is lumped together with all the slackers and sheep, but I'm referring to those who fucking smoke weed and dropped out of HS to work at Taco Bell then bitch and moan and get angry at the CEO/executives who drive Bentley to work. If you work at Taco Bell, NO YOU DO NOT GET A BENTLEY.

This makes complete scense. CEOs dont smoke weed, the snort crack. And I can do this in game since ffxi=rl woot. sheep, commies...what next? o wait someone already said hitler

[Niki]

I'm waiting for someone to mention Hitler... c'mon people, snap to!

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=Y594VfpRWbA

[Kohan]

On your last paragraph, what are you talking about... Jesus, I'm sorry if everyone that on the bad end of the pole is lumped together with all the slackers and sheep,

They don't have to be, though. What you just stated in this paragraph is more sensible than the sweeping generalizations you yourself made in previous posts. It's up to the people doing the "lumping together" to stop it, and that doesn't require being a tree hugger who runs around saying everyone is beautiful, either. Saying "it's your fault you are where you are, cut it out" isn't exactly motivational or conducive to getting anything done.

but I'm referring to those who fucking smoke weed and dropped out of HS to work at Taco Bell then bitch and moan and get angry at the CEO/executives who drive Bentley to work. If you work at Taco Bell, NO YOU DO NOT GET A BENTLEY.

This is another generalization that bothers me (smoking weed), but I'm an extremely hardcore campaigner for the legalization of marijuana, so that's inevitable. (Interestingly, I'm allergic to the plant and can't smoke nor consume it without becoming sick, but that's beside the point.)

However, I do agree that people who simply sit around and complain and expect things to be handed to them are generally useless wastes of space. This can happen on any of society's plateaus, however. A spoiled rich eighteen year old can complain because they only have a high-end BMW while their best friend received a Lotus, and feed off of mommy and daddy's money for the rest of their lives.

Basically, you appear to be saying that people should never give up, which is a good message, but you dress it up by slandering them and different aspects of their environment, and that's bad. If you really respect a motivational speaker so much, you shouldn't insult what people have to do in their everyday lives and try to get through to them that way, because that certainly isn't what a speaker would do.

If you want to talk trash on shitbags, talk trash on shitbags. Don't make other people guilty by association just because of their social standing.

This is already pretty off-topic, but then again, the fact that this discussion was in the Advanced forum at all has already been questioned, so I guess anything goes.

[Valisk]

Except the fact that your super secret strategy didn't help you win. Which would result in a "lol" from community because you thought you were better than everyone else.

We should let them try it their way and if and when they win, grill them to share post-fact, not at this point in time.

That's not how progression works. You release information pass or fail. LS will then try a combination of what you did right and avoid what you did wrong to open up new developments. After that LS passes or fails, they do the same thing and so forth. They (SA) used information provided by the fails of LS before them. Why can't LS use information from SA's fail now? Community progession works based on information provided by LSs before them, pass or fail. No one is going to give them free reach arounds for the next 3 years because they were the first to beat PW.

If a new LS was to comes out and pops PW (and fails) and posts what it did, wouldn't it be a big slap in the face if SA posts that that's exactly what they did in their failed attempts? This new LS could have approached it from a different angle and possibly uncovered new information had they known what SA kept secret. SA just wants to be the first and probably expects to be glorified for it. Not going to happen.

[Iced]

I never said it was hard to me, but compared to what most people do in game, it is hard. Most idiots or sheep stand around waiting for "leader's" command to tell them what to do, what job to bring, what spells to cast, etc etc. If you know this, then go lead a shell and give everyone that just waits for what you tell them to do, the same amount of loot as you would get and see if that makes you super happy.

Except your comparing SA to some LS with a bunch of fucking retards that continue throwing bodies at something until its accomplished. SA is one of the top tier LSs in FFXI, I am pretty sure they don't have a bunch of "sheep" as you call them in their LS. I would ponder a guess that everyone in their LS has the ability to think on their own, play their jobs correctly and efficiently at all times without the leaders telling them what to do.

This isn't some thrown together Dynamis LS that just brings in bodies upon bodies and have their few good players compensate for all the shitty ones. If they did have someone that wasn't pulling their weight, I am more then positive they would kick them out. Prior to this thread starting(not sure if it has effected anything) I am sure there are plenty of players beating down their door to get in, so its not like they couldn't replace someone they kicked out.

If you are a leaders of the LS you are in, I feel extremely bad for those people that choose to follow you with your "Holier than thou" attitude. The purpose of a leaders is to gather together people to function as a whole and whilst doing so, teaching them the art of leading. Since you are comparing a FFXI LS to a RL company, those company leaders that do not pass on their wealth of knowledge to those under them are only dooming the company they are running, for if something happens to you, the company will end up failing.

With how they distribute their drops, totally up to them since thats what their rules state. Nobody in that LS has the right to complain when they agree to:
"The points systems plays a minor role in SapereAude's lotting system. The system is based from the leader/sacs decision. Attendance and performance plays a role in the decision. 90% of all drop situations are based on time in ls, meaningful contributions, activity, items on you to help the LS, and the trust that you are not in the LS just for items."

[Questionable]

They don't have to be, though. What you just stated in this paragraph is more sensible than the sweeping generalizations you yourself made in previous posts. It's up to the people doing the "lumping together" to stop it, and that doesn't require being a tree hugger who runs around saying everyone is beautiful, either. Saying "it's your fault you are where you are, cut it out" isn't exactly motivational or conducive to getting anything done.



This is another generalization that bothers me (smoking weed), but I'm an extremely hardcore campaigner for the legalization of marijuana, so that's inevitable. (Interestingly, I'm allergic to the plant and can't smoke nor consume it without becoming sick, but that's beside the point.)

However, I do agree that people who simply sit around and complain and expect things to be handed to them are generally useless wastes of space. This can happen on any of society's plateaus, however. A spoiled rich eighteen year old can complain because they only have a high-end BMW while their best friend received a Lotus, and feed off of mommy and daddy's money for the rest of their lives.

Basically, you appear to be saying that people should never give up, which is a good message, but you dress it up by slandering them and different aspects of their environment, and that's bad. If you really respect a motivational speaker so much, you shouldn't insult what people have to do in their everyday lives and try to get through to them that way, because that certainly isn't what a speaker would do.

If you want to talk trash on shitbags, talk trash on shitbags. Don't make other people guilty by association just because of their social standing.

This is already pretty off-topic, but then again, the fact that this discussion was in the Advanced forum at all has already been questioned, so I guess anything goes.

A well thought out response. I'm just using an example of drugs relating to the type of people who mostly use it, which are the ones who slack and don't want to work to get things. Anyone can use weed or crack or whatever, but the point is that slackers shouldn't complain.

It's not that I think people wherever they are in life is anything wrong but, I feel or at least know of some people IRL or game, that aren't hardworking but yet bring these kinds of 'issues' because they are jealous. They see people get rich, people have great careers and therefore income but all they do is complain and not try to get a better education or stay away from drugs. This is what I feel the majority of people who complain about leaders getting more things in game. Sure there might be some honest and justifiable people who are getting less than what they should get but just from experience, this isn't the case.

People are inherently lazy, no one really wants to do work. Come on, this is human nature... I'd like to think most humans are good at the core but most would try to get by with least work as possible. Applies in game or out. It's either they can't see the work or don't think leadership equates to getting more things done and get upset and jealous and throw a rant. Yet if they really had such an issue, they can leave, join another shell or make their own, BUT they won't because it's easier to just ride it out letting others do the work for you, even if you get less, but you'd still get something.

[Norellicus]

If a new LS was to comes out and pops PW (and fails) and posts what it did, wouldn't it be a big slap in the face if SA posts that that's exactly what they did in their failed attempts? This new LS could have approached it from a different angle and possibly uncovered new information had they known what SA kept secret. SA just wants to be the first and probably expects to be glorified for it. Not going to happen.

^

Quoting since I made this same point and sono nuked it in the crossfire of the derailing yesterday :/

However, on the subject of lazy vs assertive players:

There's a bit of dangerous territory there, because often times the assertive players are also the most inflexible. They get it set in their heads that they're going to do X, and a leader asking them to do otherwise is no good.

I don't pretend to know what my event leads have prepared all the time, so I always ask what job I'm needed as, and given the feedback I hear from them on the other fucksticks that are like "GWAR I NOT PLAY RDM, THF ONRY" or such, I get the feeling my habit of waiting and inquiring is appreciated more than the self-assertive method, because it lets the leader pan out his ideas how he sees fit, not having to worry about me wasting time having to go back and change jobs again because I 'assumed' they wanted X vs Y.