I'd expect this from someone like Stanislav, but SapereAude...?

[Zosi]

That's not how progression works. You release information pass or fail. LS will then try a combination of what you did right and avoid what you did wrong to open up new developments. After that LS passes or fails, they do the same thing and so forth. They (SA) used information provided by the fails of LS before them. Why can't LS use information from SA's fail now? Community progession works based on information provided by LSs before them, pass or fail. No one is going to give them free reach arounds for the next 3 years because they were the first to beat PW.

If a new LS was to comes out and pops PW (and fails) and posts what it did, wouldn't it be a big slap in the face if SA posts that that's exactly what they did in their failed attempts? This new LS could have approached it from a different angle and possibly uncovered new information had they known what SA kept secret. SA just wants to be the first and probably expects to be glorified for it. Not going to happen.

Wow, so you mean that PW might follow the course of pretty much everything that was ever "hard" in FFXI? You might be too new to remember this, but there was the same situation back in the day about Fafnir, about sea Jailers (huge drama zomg), about Bahamut 2, about Salvage pre-nerf, etc. Anything that took more effort than just watching another LS attempt has had drama over "SEKRIT INFOZ", and they all ended the same way. The LSs that withheld info had their exclusitivity for a while, then everyone else figured it out, and eventually it became common knowledge. That's how "progression" in FFXI works.

You can whine all you'd like about how it's unfair that they can read strategies here, but don't have to share in return, but that's how public forums work. We can't force them to share, nor can we reasonably prevent them from using public information in the future. If you'd like to fix that, you're welcome to start your own FFXI strategies forum, where anyone who doesn't post useful strategies gets banned, but I think we both know how successful that'd be.

[Andri]

This is the dumbest fucking argument ever. In any position, you are rewarded based on the amount of work and responsibility that position requires of you. If you are a supervisor, it is your job to supervise, and you get paid more for doing that. Same shit here- you take on the extra responsibility and work of being a leader, and you get extra compensation for it.

Hmmm. I wonder what you do for a living.
I am a supervisor. Yes, I get paid more, but I am salaried, which means when I work a 10 or 12-hour day I get THE SAME PAY as when I work 8. When my employee works a 10 or 12-hour day he gets paid overtime. If I pull enough of those 10-12-hour days it's nearly a wash.

I also have more responsibility, as would be expected, more reports to file, more people to answer too. More pressure to account for why X isn't happening. Or simply to make X happen myself. Or to get my employee, on overtime, to make X happen for the company.

The benefits of being a supervisor are there, but just because i am a supervisor doesn't mean the company gives me a free Lexus to roll around in. There has to be a little bit of levity in the compensation to your leaders/supervisors.

Now back to FFXI, it's certainly logical that your hardest workers, most-stressed members reap the largest rewards. But also as a leader you have to decide when to step aside and give a prized piece to someone lower than you (someone who doesn't work as hard as you, but does work hard) in order to boost morale and foster hope in the rest of your members that if they work hard, they too can receive.

[Questionable]

Except your comparing SA to some LS with a bunch of fucking retards that continue throwing bodies at something until its accomplished. SA is one of the top tier LSs in FFXI, I am pretty sure they don't have a bunch of "sheep" as you call them in their LS. I would ponder a guess that everyone in their LS has the ability to think on their own, play their jobs correctly and efficiently at all times without the leaders telling them what to do.

This isn't some thrown together Dynamis LS that just brings in bodies upon bodies and have their few good players compensate for all the shitty ones. If they did have someone that wasn't pulling their weight, I am more then positive they would kick them out. Prior to this thread starting(not sure if it has effected anything) I am sure there are plenty of players beating down their door to get in, so its not like they couldn't replace someone they kicked out.

If you are a leaders of the LS you are in, I feel extremely bad for those people that choose to follow you with your "Holier than thou" attitude. The purpose of a leaders is to gather together people to function as a whole and whilst doing so, teaching them the art of leading. Since you are comparing a FFXI LS to a RL company, those company leaders that do not pass on their wealth of knowledge to those under them are only dooming the company they are running, for if something happens to you, the company will end up failing.

With how they distribute their drops, totally up to them since thats what their rules state. Nobody in that LS has the right to complain when they agree to:
"The points systems plays a minor role in SapereAude's lotting system. The system is based from the leader/sacs decision. Attendance and performance plays a role in the decision. 90% of all drop situations are based on time in ls, meaningful contributions, activity, items on you to help the LS, and the trust that you are not in the LS just for items."

I don't know SA, whatever LS they are, I'm talking in general. So maybe they are some super LS that can do anything and everyone is suited for leading. Good for them, do they want a cookie? Fact is, if SA is truly like this, it isn't the norm. Most groups do not function like this, where everyone directs. There is always some form of hierarchy where the top level decide how and what strategy to employ.

LS leader? Why do I want to lead a bunch of sheep? I just have a few friends I play with and that's all I'm interested in. I am just trying to show that there cannot be equals among a group that requires a leader. Even my group of small friends, when we do something, usually 1 person steps up and arranges what to do, if they wanted something. So therefore he/she usually gets some type of advantage/rights on some item or something because they planned it. Now if everyone wanted something and everyone puts in equal effort, then sure everyone can have equal rights, but that's hardly the case...

Where I work IRL, I'm just in a moderate mid-level position, not even close to the top. Small company, but do I think the revenue earned should be split equally amongst everyone? No. I get paid this much amount and it's fair, regardless if I have to work overtime or more than the CEO. Do I complain that the VP's get an office while us engineers have to sit in cubicles? That's how it should be. Maybe the game is that much different, I don't know, I never viewed so different, it's pretty close to RL social aspects to me.

Just ask yourself one simple thing.. when you want to EXP and level up, do you seek or make parties. That already says a lot about who you are and what you would do for yourself.

[Zosi]

Now back to FFXI, it's certainly logical that your hardest workers, most-stressed members reap the largest rewards. But also as a leader you have to decide when to step aside and give a prized piece to someone lower than you (someone who doesn't work as hard as you, but does work hard) in order to boost morale and foster hope in the rest of your members that if they work hard, they too can receive.

Very well said. Of course, the problem is that half the people in this thread seem to think that they're more qualified to make those decisions than the leaders of SA.

[Questionable]

Hmmm. I wonder what you do for a living.
I am a supervisor. Yes, I get paid more, but I am salaried, which means when I work a 10 or 12-hour day I get THE SAME PAY as when I work 8. When my employee works a 10 or 12-hour day he gets paid overtime. If I pull enough of those 10-12-hour days it's nearly a wash.

I also have more responsibility, as would be expected, more reports to file, more people to answer too. More pressure to account for why X isn't happening. Or simply to make X happen myself. Or to get my employee, on overtime, to make X happen for the company.

The benefits of being a supervisor are there, but just because i am a supervisor doesn't mean the company gives me a free Lexus to roll around in. There has to be a little bit of levity in the compensation to your leaders/supervisors.

Now back to FFXI, it's certainly logical that your hardest workers, most-stressed members reap the largest rewards. But also as a leader you have to decide when to step aside and give a prized piece to someone lower than you (someone who doesn't work as hard as you, but does work hard) in order to boost morale and foster hope in the rest of your members that if they work hard, they too can receive.

I don't agree with the last paragraph. If someone works hard, they will get promoted and get raises. If you do what you said, people will think they don't have to work as hard to get bonuses. Boost morale? Just work harder = get more pay, more raises etc, that's not enough morale?

[Valisk]

Wow, so you mean that PW might follow the course of pretty much everything that was ever "hard" in FFXI? You might be too new to remember this, but there was the same situation back in the day about Fafnir, about sea Jailers (huge drama zomg), about Bahamut 2, about Salvage pre-nerf, etc. Anything that took more effort than just watching another LS attempt has had drama over "SEKRIT INFOZ", and they all ended the same way. The LSs that withheld info had their exclusitivity for a while, then everyone else figured it out, and eventually it became common knowledge. That's how "progression" in FFXI works.

You can whine all you'd like about how it's unfair that they can read strategies here, but don't have to share in return, but that's how public forums work. We can't force them to share, nor can we reasonably prevent them from using public information in the future. If you'd like to fix that, you're welcome to start your own FFXI strategies forum, where anyone who doesn't post useful strategies gets banned, but I think we both know how successful that'd be.

lol, I might be "too new" to remember huh? Cute. Don't let my post count fool you. It still says Joined: Jul 2005 as opposed to your Apr 2006. So don't get beside yourself.

It's not exactly a walk in the park to farm PW pop sets and just pop him at your leisure. And even if the strategy was found, I'm sure SA would have PW exclusively for a while on their server (Garuda). I never said that we could force them to share, but that doesn't mean we can't show our dislike towards how they are handling things. Which is exactly what me and a majority of the ffxi community is doing.

[Lampoon]

That's not how progression works. You release information pass or fail. LS will then try a combination of what you did right and avoid what you did wrong to open up new developments. After that LS passes or fails, they do the same thing and so forth. They (SA) used information provided by the fails of LS before them. Why can't LS use information from SA's fail now? Community progession works based on information provided by LSs before them, pass or fail. No one is going to give them free reach arounds for the next 3 years because they were the first to beat PW.

If a new LS was to comes out and pops PW (and fails) and posts what it did, wouldn't it be a big slap in the face if SA posts that that's exactly what they did in their failed attempts? This new LS could have approached it from a different angle and possibly uncovered new information had they known what SA kept secret. SA just wants to be the first and probably expects to be glorified for it. Not going to happen.

Except you contradict yourself. Why would anyone use a strategy that's a guranteed fail? I doubt anyone has free pops they're willing to toss just for the sake of losing them.

[Valisk]

Except you contradict yourself. Why would anyone use a strategy that's a guranteed fail? I doubt anyone has free pops they're willing to toss just for the sake of losing them.

I'm not sure what you're saying. You act like people are going to do the exact same thing from a failed attempt. They are going to take what the LS before them did wrong and avoid those mistakes. What part of that don't you understand?

[Zosi]

lol, I might be "too new" to remember huh? Cute. Don't let my post count fool you. It still says Joined: Jul 2005 as opposed to your Apr 2006. So don't get beside yourself.

I lurked from early 2005 until about a year ago, think I registered in 2006 to post a link to some model viewer lists after an update and didn't post much else until the end of 2007. Join dates are pretty meaningless, given that I remember reading the drama in question. Nice attempt to try to discredit me by pointing out something completely irrelevant though.

[Cloudius]

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=Y594VfpRWbA

This thread started getting lame when ppl compared rl jobs to ffxi, but more importently:
Any1 know what's the movie called that's being used in all these ffxi Hitler videos?

[Valisk]

I lurked from early 2005 until about a year ago, think I registered in 2006 to post a link to some model viewer lists after an update and didn't post much else until the end of 2007. Join dates are pretty meaningless, given that I remember reading the drama in question. Nice attempt to try to discredit me by pointing out something completely irrelevant though.

You were the one who claimed I might be "too new" and I was providing evidence that I infact wasn't to YOUR attempt to discredit me. Nice try. And yea, I also lurked for over a year before registering and posting. So when you're done with the irrelevant remarks, reply to rest of my post(s).

[Lampoon]

I'm not sure what you're saying. You act like people are going to do the exact same thing from a failed attempt. They are going to take what the LS before them did wrong and avoid those mistakes. What part of that don't you understand?

I get what you saying, but wouldn't you rather try a different approach instead of one filled with mistakes? The whole concept of learning from mistakes is never to repeat them, correct?

P.S. Guess that would apply to the whole LS Rules & regulations issue as well. If people won't learn anything from what transpired in SA, then all we can do is laugh at them and give kudos to SA leaders?

[Niki]

This thread started getting lame when ppl compared rl jobs to ffxi, but more importently:
Any1 know what's the movie called that's being used in all these ffxi Hitler videos?

Original title is "Der Untergang" and the english one is "Downfall"

[Brill Weave]

Face it, this forum is mostly consisting of high top tier elite players from all servers, the sheep usual go on alla and care about chocobo raising or racing and get happy when a new festival event is coming out. You can't compare us to them, honestly, that is why leaders do more work

Am I the only who was incredibly amused by this comment. Well played Questionable. Well played. As to the comment about my "slandering" it's not slanderous at all. I stated my thoughts on the subject, get the sand out of your vag unless you bring something relevant to the conversation.

[Valisk]

I get what you saying, but wouldn't you rather try a different approach instead of one filled with mistakes? The whole concept of learning from mistakes is never to repeat them, correct?

P.S. Guess that would apply to the whole LS Rules & regulations issue as well. If people won't learn anything from what transpired in SA, then all we can do is laugh at them and give kudos to SA leaders?

I still think you are still missing the point. You are still assuming that they will use the exact same strategy. You would develop a new strategy using the "good" from previous attempts while avoiding the "bad" from previous attempts. After this new one, you can reinforce certain aspects, clarify things, and learn new stuff for the next shell (and yourself) to use.

And SA has made it clear that they have in fact learned some new things by stating just that and saying that they should have it down in 1-2 more pops.

[Spider-Dan]

Who is talking about special treatment? I thought even the last person here understood that nobody here says a leader should get anything just because he is a leader.

Then what the hell are you arguing?

There have been two primary arguments on what I would call the "libertarian" side of this discussion:

a) leaders can do whatever the hell they want (be it "ethical" or not) because it's their shell; if you don't like it, leave

b) leaders can do whatever the hell they want (be it "ethical" or not) because they wear the heavy, heavy crown and all the responsibility that comes with it

If you are seriously arguing that leadership deserves to be lootwhores because of all the extra effort they put in, sorry, I don't buy it. The most glaring problem with that idea is: how many people do you need to "lead" an event? The vast majority of shells have a leadership group that is >1, which means that you have one competent person leading an event and a bunch of other sackholders that aren't doing anything particularly outstanding, but are still just A Little More Equal than the rest of the members.

If your (plural) response is to sit around and decry the Red Menace (while we are in the middle of seeing the real-life downside of unchecked capitalism), be my guest. It has nothing to do with my argument that leaderships that pillage their LSes should neither be accepted nor ignored.

[Andri]

I don't agree with the last paragraph. If someone works hard, they will get promoted and get raises. If you do what you said, people will think they don't have to work as hard to get bonuses. Boost morale? Just work harder = get more pay, more raises etc, that's not enough morale?

Don't you see, they CAN'T work as hard as me. As a sack and linkshell leader, I schedule the runs, I run the events, I pick the jobs, I tell them what to do. They can come do their jobs, lead parties, rotate bards, help set stun orders, but ultimately, there is no way they can work harder than me, unless we make them a sack and they take over my duties.

So is it fair that I scoop up every single thing that comes my way? I set up the run, does that mean I get first everything? And only when I have eaten, then they get a turn? In my opinion, not if you want to inspire them. Show them not only what hard work is, but what generosity and selflessness is.

[Yugl]

I never said it was hard to me, but compared to what most people do in game, it is hard. Most idiots or sheep stand around waiting for "leader's" command to tell them what to do, what job to bring, what spells to cast, etc etc. If you know this, then go lead a shell and give everyone that just waits for what you tell them to do, the same amount of loot as you would get and see if that makes you super happy.

It's not unreasonable for a member to ask those questions. People with multiple jobs may have to change due to a lack/surplus of tanks/DDs/mages. A regular member can't just stand up and say "Hey you, come as RDM and I'll come BLM". Only those with enough authority/respect from LS members can effectively set up the alliance, and thus, know what is needed for an event. Same goes for the "What to do" portion of your post. Depending on who shows up to an event, the strategy may change.

Although I don't agree with that idea that leaders should be rewarded more simply because they are leaders, I do believe members who participate more should be compensated. I understand that some (Such as Zosi) believe leaders naturally put more effort into planning and executing events. However, that is not always the case. Members can become leaders simply because of longevity or their personal history with the LS Leader, yet, not make the same amount of effort as regular members. Furthermore, the fact that a LS generally limits the amount of leaders it has creates another issue. If you have a LS with 30 members and (23/30) of them put forth the same effort, it's unlikely that all 23 will become leaders simply because it undermines the rights associated with being a leader. Does that mean all 23 members shouldn't be compensated just as equally? Should the select few (Assume not all of them became leaders) who were lucky enough to become leaders receive more benefits? To say that someone should receive more benefits just because of their position in the LS is to advocate hierarchy, and until all LS leaders are chosen based on their participation, the notion that leaders should receive more simply because they are leader is a flawed argument.

Just ask yourself one simple thing.. when you want to EXP and level up, do you seek or make parties. That already says a lot about who you are and what you would do for yourself.

Actually it says more about what you're playing. An unknown BRD can get into a relic merit PT seeking while a PUP is practically forced to make their own PT. In fact, not taking the leadership role for merit PTs can turn out to be more beneficial than being the leader of a merit party.

[Darwinion]

Original title is "Der Untergang" and the english one is "Downfall"

Fucking awesome movie, even though I needed the subtitles. But it won't have made US audiences because anything outside Hollywood is considered to be shit.

Oops... this is off topic. I'm gonna get nuked by a kitty. Bye..... /wave

[Hemorabe]

This thread started getting lame when ppl compared rl jobs to ffxi, but more importently:
Any1 know what's the movie called that's being used in all these ffxi Hitler videos?

This is better http://www.metacafe.com/watch/513045/hitler_rap/