I wrote a lolGuide (to Nyzul)

[Keria]

fucking LOLLLLLLLLL @don't bring a bard

[Halion]

Players who aren't good at the game/their job can stumble through Nyzul with just about any unconventional set up, so if you want to make a general guide to help all players who are new to Nyzul whether they have the ability to perfect and rock the shit out of it or not, you should reconsider your method. You are not just giving information and advice, but subjecting them to your bias as to how it *should* be done. That is not a helpful guide.

Case in point: If you have a BRD and they aren't pulling while people are killing they are doing it wrong. This isn't unique to Nyzul by a long shot. You shouldn't be surprised it's a weighted point against you when you ask for criticism. It's you who doesn't know how to play BRD well, if at all, not others who want to start up Nyzul that you are deigning to talk down to.
If the BRD is good they will be good, encouraging them not to try is because it's "too hard" is insulting to people who can figure it out just fine.

If you don't want someone telling you "I had (setup/job) and failed" then don't make job suggestions at all, because some people will fail with anything. Any job will work, it just won't be ideal.

[Therin]

fucking LOLLLLLLLLL @most of the guide

Fixed.

[Karshe]

It wasn't a horrible start at a guide, however, you need to give a lot less commentary and a lot more facts. Mainly due to the fact that a lot of your commentary was questionable at best. See: Everything you said regarding BRD.

For reference, the setup we use is:
WAR/NINx2
MNK/NIN
THF/NIN
RDM/WHM
BRD/WHM

A guide, in my opinion, should be totally objective and I believe this is where you failed.

[Therin]

A guide, in my opinion, should be totally objective and I believe this is where you failed.

Agreed. And for the record, /NIN on DRK, SAM, and DRG for Nyzul is utterly fucking fail. Anyone who goes as any of those jobs subbing NIN to Nyzul Isle is completely wasting a party slot and should be immediately removed from their group for purposely bringing a shitty job combination and forcing other people to pick up their dead weight.

Note: DRK/NIN is somewhat passable if you have a Ridill, but under no other circumstance is it acceptable in Nyzul Isle, even if you're using a two-handed weapon. In specific other situations, DRK/NIN is a little more acceptable, but not for Nyzul Isle.

[Ruiner]

FUCKING

WHAT EVER YOU DO

NO FUCKING BARDS IN NYZUL

[Gaea]

Teorem. I've seen too many groups (particularly newer groups) fail lamps because of sight aggressive mobs (sometimes NMs) killing players who don't have the ability to cast sleep. Splitting up entirely can be a bad idea until the floor is well gauged as to the types of mobs that are on it. Also, I don't want to just repeat stuff that's in the main "nyzul isle investigation" article such as Pathos Boosts. I'm just trying to give people some ideas that they can use to be successful in their runs. Not all of my ideas are right for everyone, and some of them are just common sense. I'm just trying to give people that are newer a bit of direction.

Also a Dusty Wing on a boss run (which is what I suggested) allows a SAM to use Meikyo Shisui, burn TP, and instantly refill it for another 3 weaponskills. How is that "not useful" for a Samurai. I know A LOT of SAMs that look forward to exploiting this and you are telling me that a Dusty Wing would be better off on a WAR?

Now, I'm not saying a WAR can't get a Dusty Wing too, but most people are only willing to spend a certain amount of tokens. Dusty Wing, is much more important to a SAM than anything else in the list. Champion's Drink is one of the most important items for a Monk who's going to Hundred Fists, and a Warrior would tend to get the most out of stat boost, attack boost, and accuracy boosting drinks for their 2 hr.

As far as saying DRK/NIN is fail, I happen to like our dual wielding ridill/kraken drk but I'd still ask a Scythe DRK to come /nin just for the sake of navigating quickly. I'd rather a DRK come nin and primarily focus on stun and getting around without aggro, than come in and whine about using oils and powders and asking for sneak and invisible.

For some reason I thought Providence could be dispelled, but I guess not. Wiki says it can't either but I thought I've dispelled it before. It must have been something else and I'll have to confirm that.

As far as "boody boosts" aren't for anyone, I'd have to disagree for a newer group on their first few boss runs. White Magic can be locked on the last floor so using a Body Boost and getting everyone healed before it can be a really great idea if you got the time. Fafnir's Hurricane Wing does a lot of damage, at least as much as it does in Dragon's Aery. Until people get used to fighting these monsters under the pressure of a time-limit I'd suggest that everyone go at these bosses with HP drinks. Back line jobs can elect out of it later.

As far as the Bard thing, I'm not going to get back into it. My guide tries to steer newer groups away from inexperienced bards for what I feel is a good reason. If you work your way down, you'll see how I point out how a Bard can be awesome in a run,.

Karshe, that's a great setup. Some people have difficulty, however, in minimizing conventional healing like that. i personally don't see a problem with it, but a less experienced group might have trouble. In my opinion, a group like yours is very thorough, and can accomplish anything in Nyzul isle very quickly. I wouldn't suggest that kind of thing for a starter group, though. A group like that requires people to understand how to stun with sleep, lullaby, and weapon skills, (which I'm assuming you do), but when a person thinks "Stun" they usually think of something more conventional such as the spell "Stun" or "Head Butt".

Starter groups should have a little more conventional healing, a definite, reliable stun, and some way to provoke. I've done runs where I didn't even bring anyone that could provoke, or anyone that could stun and I've done fine. I've done runs as MNK SAM SAM THF SCH BRD and cleared 5 floors with plenty of time to spare. That doesn't mean it's for everyone.

Anyways, there are no guides for this thing published anywheres so I thought I'd make one. Feel free to write your own if you disagree with mine. I'm not claiming to have all the answers, and my guide certainly isn't for veteran, established groups that could do Nyzul Isle in their sleep.

[Zhais]

Drk/sam on ep/dc mobs is perfectly fine.... /nin is excessive damage mitigation. They get hit a few times, you cure them, mob is dead, you move on. Oh noes.

As for all the 'inexperienced' person comments..... an inexperienced ANYTHING can do just as bad and fuck up a run. No need to single out the bard job class. The points you make are entirely useless.

I've done mnk mnk thf blm rdm brd since day one of nyzul, and it works absolutely perfectly fine with the thf sometimes as another DD job. No need at all for provoke when you have three sleepers....



When you're making a guide, you shouldn't be putting it in the context for inexperienced users. It should be informative, not subjective. Saying 'These things can happen' or 'X mob is resistant to lullaby/finale' or 'These are the objectives and how to complete them' makes a good nyzul guide. Talking about your opinions and your subjective views on party mechanics is just ignorant fluff that should not be read.

[Izzy]

For some reason I thought Providence could be dispelled, but I guess not. Wiki says it can't either but I thought I've dispelled it before. It must have been something else and I'll have to confirm that.

Don't waste your time, you were mistaken.

[Gaea]

Drk/sam on ep/dc mobs is perfectly fine.... /nin is excessive damage mitigation. They get hit a few times, you cure them, mob is dead, you move on. Oh noes.

As for all the 'inexperienced' person comments..... an inexperienced ANYTHING can do just as bad and fuck up a run. No need to single out the bard job class. The points you make are entirely useless.

I've done mnk mnk thf blm rdm brd since day one of nyzul, and it works absolutely perfectly fine with the thf sometimes as another DD job. No need at all for provoke when you have three sleepers....



When you're making a guide, you shouldn't be putting it in the context for inexperienced users. It should be informative, not subjective. Saying 'These things can happen' or 'X mob is resistant to lullaby/finale' or 'These are the objectives and how to complete them' makes a good nyzul guide. Talking about your opinions and your subjective views on party mechanics is just ignorant fluff that should not be read.

I've had people tell me they asked friends for advice and that's the kind of advice they got. When I gave them something more "subjective", they were successful.

Anyways, Zhais, I also stated that I've done parties without and stun without provoke, that doesn't mean everyone should. DRK/SAM can get beaten up pretty badly on "leader" floors. These monsters are around level 79. Qiqirn thieves seem to bea bout the worst thing someone without shadows can run into, and even people with shadows. Hate bounces around a bit though, and I keep stoneskin up on to minimize some of the damage as well. I'm can imagine jobs without shadows at all taking quite a beating on top of the bombs they drop. So, no, I wouldn't suggest a new group that's looking to a guide to get them started to go about things this way.

Later on, they can make adjustments that they are comfortable with. Nyzul Isle itself, YOUR FIRST TIME, can be an intimidating place as it can be with anyone's first time. Having people take jobs with obvious, specific roles, helps alleviate some of the confusion that can come with that intimidation.

If you have a working group, this guide doesn't even apply to you.

[Lexa]

YOU TALK AND YOU TALK AND IT GETS MORE AND MORE STUPID WITH EACH POST!

GO AWAY AND TAKE YOUR "GUIDE" WITH YOU!

[Izzy]

Oh Poof. I just realized it was YOU that wrote this guide! That explains everything. The only thing that bothers me is that someone MIGHT actually read this and take it seriously.

[Gaea]

You could try making a contribution yourself and write one. I'm just trying to fill a void and get some people off my back about joining my nyzul or how to start their own. This is just stuff that i know works, and works well.

It's not the only way to do things and if you think your way is better you should consider writing your own guide. It would have saved me the time of writing one for people that ask me for advice and I could have just suggested yours.

[Lexa]

I don't need to write a guide, because the people I know aren't retarded and know how to figure out Nyzul themselves. Also, FYI, Nyzul my first time in was neither intimidating nor hard. It took me about a minute to figure out that as long as communication was top notch, everything else was gravy.

But wow, now I wish I was you, since you're clearly a very popular and important person, to have so many people - complete strangers even - run you over to dole out important advice, and to be let into your group! HAY maybe I can join your group too? PLZPLZPLZPLZPLZPLZPLZPLZPLZPLZPLZ?!?!?

[Izzy]

You could try making a contribution yourself and write one. I'm just trying to fill a void and get some people off my back about joining my nyzul or how to start their own. This is just stuff that i know works, and works well.

It's not the only way to do things and if you think your way is better you should consider writing your own guide. It would have saved me the time of writing one for people that ask me for advice and I could have just suggested yours.

People tried to contribute and let you know what was inherently wrong with your guide. You however, are being a huge hypocrite and taking offense to any criticisms that come your way. If you're not going to take the constructive criticism seriously, why are you taking my obvious instigation seriously?

[Therin]

Teorem. I've seen too many groups (particularly newer groups) fail lamps because of sight aggressive mobs (sometimes NMs) killing players who don't have the ability to cast sleep. Splitting up entirely can be a bad idea until the floor is well gauged as to the types of mobs that are on it. Also, I don't want to just repeat stuff that's in the main "nyzul isle investigation" article such as Pathos Boosts. I'm just trying to give people some ideas that they can use to be successful in their runs. Not all of my ideas are right for everyone, and some of them are just common sense. I'm just trying to give people that are newer a bit of direction.

People should have Sneak/Invis. If they still aggro even with those things, then they just suck. There are only a few True Sight mobs in Nyzul and in probably 200+ runs I've rarely seen areas where they were blocking the path so badly that I couldn't make it through. If you DO find a hallway packed with True Sight, you should probably just wait for the whole group in that instance, but as I said, it's very rare - so in general, suggesting people to stick together on floors where it's faster to split up (lamp floors or all enemies floors) is a bad call.

Also a Dusty Wing on a boss run (which is what I suggested) allows a SAM to use Meikyo Shisui, burn TP, and instantly refill it for another 3 weaponskills. How is that "not useful" for a Samurai. I know A LOT of SAMs that look forward to exploiting this and you are telling me that a Dusty Wing would be better off on a WAR?

I think we're all assuming that you WON'T two-hour on a boss anyway. You can't do multiple boss runs if you're relying on two-hours - a Dusty Wing is definitely useful for any melee, but if your SAM isn't two-houring, it's less useful for him than it is a WAR or DRK (like Teorem said). The only time you should two-hour a boss is on your last run or if you're EXTREMELY low on time. So, I guess you should edit the guide to say, "If you're a SAM and feel like using your two-hour on a boss, you can exploit the Dusty Wing to pull off three more weaponskills. Generally, this is far from a requirement, but it's certainly fun." That's more accurate.

As for melee drinks, I like Braver's and Soldier's on my DRK or WAR. Accuracy and attack drinks are definitely NOT worth the 200 points because with Berserk and Aggressor (in the case of WAR), Last Resort and Souleater (in the case of DRK), plus BRD songs you should be capped on accuracy and approaching terribly diminishing returns on attack (even on bosses).

As far as saying DRK/NIN is fail, I happen to like our dual wielding ridill/kraken drk but I'd still ask a Scythe DRK to come /nin just for the sake of navigating quickly. I'd rather a DRK come nin and primarily focus on stun and getting around without aggro, than come in and whine about using oils and powders and asking for sneak and invisible.

No. Absolutely not. If you have a Ridill/Kraken DRK, well, okay. Be glad you're fighting EP->DC otherwise 220 skill would never hit it. But you shouldn't write your guide around a Ridill/Kraken DRK. In fact, you should remove the bullshit about /NIN entirely because for any two-handed job it's absolutely ridiculous. I would have no qualms betting that if you made your DRK bring /SAM and your SAM bring /WAR you'd shave off 5-7 minutes on your average run. /NIN on DRK, SAM, and DRG is absolutely a waste of resource.

And for the record, DRK's job primarily is to deal damage - Stunning and Absorbing TP is great and effective as well, but if you're making your DRK/NIN bring that sub solely for Stun-whoring and carrying larger stacks of stealth items then I REALLY feel sorry for your DRK. Also if someone whines about stealth items, they shouldn't be doing Nyzul.

Besides, on any floor except leader, DRG/SAM, DRK/SAM, or SAM/WAR can solo a lot of mobs before needing any support whatsoever. I guess you didn't realize, but most non-leader mobs hit for less than 80 damage a hit and DrainI/II will absorb 300-450. And shadows don't even absorb most AoEs here anyway.

As far as "boody boosts" aren't for anyone, I'd have to disagree for a newer group on their first few boss runs. White Magic can be locked on the last floor so using a Body Boost and getting everyone healed before it can be a really great idea if you got the time. Fafnir's Hurricane Wing does a lot of damage, at least as much as it does in Dragon's Aery. Until people get used to fighting these monsters under the pressure of a time-limit I'd suggest that everyone go at these bosses with HP drinks. Back line jobs can elect out of it later.

Time limit? Are you shitting me? Bosses should die in 30 seconds or less (with the single exception of Cerberus), which is way before Fanatic's wears off. Body Boosts are useful as an extra line of defense in case you get a Cerberus pop on your boss floor, but otherwise they're a waste of 200 points. The only job that should bring a Body Boost every run is DRK, for Souleater. For others, it's hardly necessary, only a nice extra line of defense if they have enough tokens to spare.

As far as the Bard thing, I'm not going to get back into it. My guide tries to steer newer groups away from inexperienced bards for what I feel is a good reason. If you work your way down, you'll see how I point out how a Bard can be awesome in a run,.

Fine, I understand that and I agree with you in that regard. But for God's sake edit your guide to say that you should find an EXPERIENCED BRD and avoid going with a BRD that doesn't know how to do his job, rather than this ridiculous bullshit about not bringing one. BRD is by far the most important job in my Nyzul static (except perhaps THF for drops!), dropping one would greatly hinder our speed for sure. As long as your BRD is semi-intelligent, it only makes your run faster and is never a hindrance.

Anyways, there are no guides for this thing published anywheres so I thought I'd make one. Feel free to write your own if you disagree with mine. I'm not claiming to have all the answers, and my guide certainly isn't for veteran, established groups that could do Nyzul Isle in their sleep.

Poof, your guide just blows in general. It's subjective, opinionated, and ignorant. It's full of typographical and grammatical errors. It's full of bad ideas. Honestly, I could ween about 10% of it off as useful information. If you want real constructive criticism, I'd suggest rewriting the whole damn thing.

[Zhais]

I've had people tell me they asked friends for advice and that's the kind of advice they got. When I gave them something more "subjective", they were successful.

subjective advice works when you personally know the person you are giving advice to. Why? Because that advice is inherently SUBJECTIVE.

When you write a blanket guide for anyone and everyone, it can not be subjective. You do not know your audience, you can not even begin to extrapolate the behavior of your intended audience.

[Gaea]

my guide isn't for everyone and anyone. even my first post said it would like not apply to anyone here doing nyzul isle. it did however say that you can refer your friends to it if you think itll help them get started. particularly, friends who are inexperienced at Nyzul Isle and are bugging you for advice or to insisting you come help them when you already have your own group or you are done with nyzul all together.

its designed to get people started, not change the habits or strategies of existing groups. it's also still under construction and i'm adding more stuff to it.

[Zhais]

my guide isn't for everyone and anyone. even my first post said it would like not apply to anyone here doing nyzul isle. it did however say that you can refer your friends to it if you think itll help them get started. particularly, friends who are bugging you for advice or to come help them when you have your own.

its designed to get people started, not change the habits or strategies of existing groups.

You completely ignored what I said. Go back and re-read.

[Izzy]

my guide isn't for everyone and anyone. even my first post said it would like not apply to anyone here doing nyzul isle. it did however say that you can refer your friends to it if you think itll help them get started. particularly, friends who are inexperienced at Nyzul Isle and are bugging you for advice or to insisting you come help them when you already have your own group or you are done with nyzul all together.

its designed to get people started, not change the habits or strategies of existing groups.

Why would I recommend a guide to any of my friends that has so many flaws in it?