Salvage Strats Review/input from experts

[fishstix]

I've been setting up small runs, 2-3 ppl, and want to try Arrapago soon. I've been thinking about using NIN, SAM, RDM for Arrapago, with a dual-boxed BRD. How would be the best way to go about killing the QQAs?

Every time we've tried to get them to follow us by staying in the correct range, they just run away. They've never warped on us, but it's been close before, but that was with 7 people.

With NIN, SAM, RDM, I was thinking, having RDM open with a nuke to force the QQA to cast something, while the SAM runs in, sekka-SC with NIN, then, another WS (trying to kill it without having to 2hr). Shouldn't that bring it down pretty far?

We already have all the Macha's we need, so I'm sorta hoping we can hit QQAx2, Bhoot/Flayer, Chariot with just 3-4 ppl.

You could bring an icarus wing each for after the initial stored TP ws, MB with the rdm. I know you said you don't want to, but personally, I would just 2hr on the first QQa.

[Freysi]

You could bring an icarus wing each for after the initial stored TP ws, MB with the rdm. I know you said you don't want to, but personally, I would just 2hr on the first QQa.

I guess since the first QQA has a lot shorter path it would make sense to 2hr it and save wings and stuff for the second QQA?

[pchan]

I've been setting up small runs, 2-3 ppl, and want to try Arrapago soon. I've been thinking about using NIN, SAM, RDM for Arrapago, with a dual-boxed BRD. How would be the best way to go about killing the QQAs?

Every time we've tried to get them to follow us by staying in the correct range, they just run away. They've never warped on us, but it's been close before, but that was with 7 people.

With NIN, SAM, RDM, I was thinking, having RDM open with a nuke to force the QQA to cast something, while the SAM runs in, sekka-SC with NIN, then, another WS (trying to kill it without having to 2hr). Shouldn't that bring it down pretty far?

We already have all the Macha's we need, so I'm sorta hoping we can hit QQAx2, Bhoot/Flayer, Chariot with just 3-4 ppl.

This seem enaugh power to kill both QQA, although your run will probably be hell due to no THF.

I've done this zone several times with thf only as DD (rdm/nin, brd, thf). Yes thf sucks a bit on 1F for damage ; what we did is clear first wing totally and 3rd wing dropped HP, waist, INT or str each time. INt will be important for the rdm's nuke. I think we spent 40 min on 1F.

first QQA : rdm and THF whould have saved TPs on 1F and open with a sc (savage blade > dacing edge in our case), followed by chainspell nuke. Having int makes the difference between kill or not kill.

Both QQTH died easily.

We finish with the chariot, rdm/nin soloing it with nuke/gravity/bind.

[fishstix]

It's been a while since I've seen a QQa warp, but I can't remember many of the 2nd one warping, yeah since he has a longer path. You would have an issue of the gears outside of that room, if you don't clear it first, and can't control the QQa from running too fast with distance. Also, by this point, your medicated status should wear from the first QQa? If you wanted to use them twice.

- You clear one wing of quturb, and one of skelettons? Also a trick here is that only the quturbs that wield a dagger need be dispelled ( and the skelettons that have a staff).

- You suggest to kill the lamia on the next floor, but its a merrow ( SE) and can make you loose your TP for the QQA. We just skip mobs on 2F and go directly to QQA (and we should have enough abi, HP by now).

Isnt the entire 2nd Qutrub wing (SW) blms needing dispel? For the 2nd floor, we normally kill both lamia and then a skeleton or 2. Pretty much, it's a trade off of time spent on 2F vs 1F and hand cells which yeah, is a better choice overall if it can be executed as well.

[Uzor]

I've killed QQA with WHM MNK SAM before. It isn't really that hard, just save up TP for both of them, then do as Mdk suggested and do a SC. Takes out half its HP in 3 sec. The remaining HP really isn't very hard to take out.

As for SW wing, if you have bad luck and your RDM or BRD don't have magic yet (we usually give cells to WHM first for Regen III, Haste and paralyna), you can throw up barblizzara and barparalyzra. That way your melees will rarely get paralyzed anyway, which kind of removes the need to paralyna them. Most often then not, your RDM or BRD will have a magic by then (especially if you chose to give it to them first), so dispel shouldn't be a problem in the first place. Besides, your RDM can pull with Silence, then dispel them at camp.

[mdkuser]

Isnt the entire 2nd Qutrub wing (SW) blms needing dispel?

Thre are both BLM (dagger) DRK (sword) quturbs in the second wing I believe.

[tymora]

Arra cells should go to RDM over WHM in my opinion. Granted you will like paralyna, but who needs it when you can dispel it at the start?

Furthermore, RDM can self-refresh, allowing you to cure more than a WHM could at start.

That said, after 20-30 runs(out of ~300) bringing a WHM, my group has since did away with a WHM completely. We have recently added back a SCH though.

[mdkuser]

dont need dispel in the first wing except for the first 2 lamias ( which should drop magic). And like uzor said, barpara and barblizzard make ice spike's para proc very uncommon.

[Uzor]

While yes, a RDM can refresh himself, but imo it doesn't really matter. In low-man situations I prefer RDM over WHM for the reason that RDM is more versatile, but in normal runs a WHM should have no problem keeping everyone alive and buffed.

It really is a matter of preference, though. I can see why people would prefer RDM over WHM (I do too in low-man runs), but I just prefer WHM myself. Really, WHM can do everything RDM can do except dispel. And that leaves more time for the RDM to focus on pulling, leaving the remaining melees to actually melee. Granted, a BRD could very well pull, but our BRD is dualboxed, so I guess we might be kind of a special case.

[Neosutra]

While yes, a RDM can refresh himself, but imo it doesn't really matter. In low-man situations I prefer RDM over WHM for the reason that RDM is more versatile, but in normal runs a WHM should have no problem keeping everyone alive and buffed.

It really is a matter of preference, though. I can see why people would prefer RDM over WHM (I do too in low-man runs), but I just prefer WHM myself. Really, WHM can do everything RDM can do except dispel. And that leaves more time for the RDM to focus on pulling, leaving the remaining melees to actually melee. Granted, a BRD could very well pull, but our BRD is dualboxed, so I guess we might be kind of a special case.

rdm/whm: regen1, haste, phalanx2, refresh, paralyna, erase

whm: regen3, haste, paralyna, bar spells, erase.

rdm/whm > whm in just about all situations in salvage. Phalanx2 will net you more hp over time than regen3 by far. No real need to give SJ to tank on this floor anyways as counter tanking ups your DoT alot. Not to mention if you are balls to the wall kicking ass you will need ever inch of mp you have and rdm mp recovery abilities >>> whm by far.

[Uzor]

That's the thing though. In most cases MP will not be an issue. More often then not your RDM or BRD will have got magic by the end of floor 1 anyway.

Besides, giving SJ to a MNK/WAR first means you'll kill faster on 1F as well. And yes, counter tanking on 1F increases your DoT a lot. I 100% agree with that. The thing is, on 1F MP really isn't an issue, even for a WHM. Everything on 1F hits really weak, weak enough that a MNK can counter tank them just fine with only Regen III to keep them alive, and still leave the WHM with enough MP to haste everyone.

[Neosutra]

That's the thing though. In most cases MP will not be an issue. More often then not your RDM or BRD will have got magic by the end of floor 1 anyway.

Besides, giving SJ to a MNK/WAR first means you'll kill faster on 1F as well. And yes, counter tanking on 1F increases your DoT a lot. I 100% agree with that. The thing is, on 1F MP really isn't an issue, even for a WHM. Everything on 1F hits really weak, weak enough that a MNK can counter tank them just fine with only Regen III to keep them alive, and still leave the WHM with enough MP to haste everyone.

Not sure how fast/slow you kill but we always walk the MP line, in ever zone except maybe ZR/Bhaf since that shit hits like pussies.

SSR = back to back to back to back non stop fomors = walk mp line. Arrapoga -> non stop qutrubs/lamia with a 3-4 person haste cycle, dispel, cure, erase.

If you arent pushing the limits you're doing it wrong.

[Uzor]

Not at all, Arrapago drop plenty of chests with Dusty Ethers in them. Besides, as I said, Regen III every now and then is enough to prevent the MNK from dying. MP really isn't an issue even with non-stop pulling. Besides, Silver Sea too have Dusty Ethers, Elixirs, refresh drinks and lots of goodies you can put to good use, even though you don't have to depend on them.

Even if you have bad luck and get no other magic cell before the NM room, MP still shouldn't be an issue if the WHM play his role right. Walking the MP line isn't an issue if you don't cross the line, which you don't have to unless you do the zone wrong. Like aggroing an entire room full of fomors, in which case the aggroer just proceed to kite them anyway. Which prevents you from crossing the line, or if you still cross it, cross it too far.

In Zhayolm you're guaranteed to get another magic cell in second room if you don't get 2 from first chest. Silver Sea you can get one. Arrapago you can get one. In Bhaflau you don't get one until the last room. But yet, in none of the zones MP shouldn't be an issue, even with the melees constantly engaging a mob.

I agree, in low-man situations, a RDM is better, simply due to a RDM being more versatile. But those are for other reasons besides just simply healing and buffing.

[Neosutra]

Not at all, Arrapago drop plenty of chests with Dusty Ethers in them. Besides, as I said, Regen III every now and then is enough to prevent the MNK from dying. MP really isn't an issue even with non-stop pulling. Besides, Silver Sea too have Dusty Ethers, Elixirs, refresh drinks and lots of goodies you can put to good use, even though you don't have to depend on them.

Even if you have bad luck and get no other magic cell before the NM room, MP still shouldn't be an issue if the WHM play his role right. Walking the MP line isn't an issue if you don't cross the line, which you don't have to unless you do the zone wrong. Like aggroing an entire room full of fomors, in which case the aggroer just proceed to kite them anyway. Which prevents you from crossing the line, or if you still cross it, cross it too far.

In Zhayolm you're guaranteed to get another magic cell in second room if you don't get 2 from first chest. Silver Sea you can get one. Arrapago you can get one. In Bhaflau you don't get one until the last room. But yet, in none of the zones MP shouldn't be an issue, even with the melees constantly engaging a mob.

I agree, in low-man situations, a RDM is better, simply due to a RDM being more versatile. But those are for other reasons besides just simply healing and buffing.

What are you considering low man? Because every arrapoga and/or SSR my mage is walking the line of just enough mp.

[mdkuser]

typically a 4-5 man silvesea where u just hit 4 NMs

[ringthree]

Here are just a random collection of thoughts that I think might prove useful.

1. The only truly required job in Salvage is THF. I know that is weird to say, but I have done full runs in every zone without a BRD or RDM or WAR or MNK or some other key job. THF for TH and sacing is, to me, the most critical role in Salvage in most of the zones.

2. The is something funky going on in Arrapago. For some reason I believe that the drop rates of the first floor mobs are determined by how many mobs are already killed. That is why we always clear the entire first wing, and the first room of the second wing of Qutrubs. There have just been too many times where I have noticed it to dismiss it as a coincidence. The popping of the rampart also seems to indicate to me that there is some correlation between mobs killed and other events on the first floor.

3. Don't listen to other people. A lot of people act like the way they do Salvage is the only way to do things. At first, listen to suggestions of other people, but don't try to fit yourself into their mold. Maybe you DD's aren't as strong. Maybe your RDM can't keep up. Maybe you are using a COR instead of a BRD. You can get almost anything to work in Salvage, and anyone that says there are iron laws that can't be broken about Salvage obviously hasn't ever run a Salvage event.

4. Get your players to learn the zones. This is one of the hardest things that I had to do. Salvage is a small group, and if you are coming from a big LS where people are used to waiting on instructions to do something then you are going to lose a lot of time. It's going to take time for your players to memorize zones but it's the best way to improve your runs.

5. Any DD job can tank bosses and you can use more than two tanks for bosses. I have had almost every combination of DD's besides DRK tank all of the bosses. MNK, WAR, DRG, THF, SAM and NIN have all worked fine for boss tanking. We have our WHM heal the main tank, the RDM heal the second tank and the BRD heal the third tank. The third person on the boss should be ready to pull off of the boss if needed, but in general it works just fine if your support players can handle the role. A follow up to this is make sure to assign healing/support to a specific tank, this will cut down a lot on over-curing/cross-curing and save a ton of MP.

6. If you are on Odin, ask Celestria for help and advice. She has the best working knowledge of Salvage of anyone I know.

[MillionDollarMan]

Yea any job can do the boss.. Sometimes I have 5 melee on the boss just to speed things up.. People just need to know when mp is low get out then go back it in at the right time. AR anybody with shadows can fight boss.. SSR everyone can melee boss.. 10/10 gears LBC lol everyone can melee.. ZR i let 2 people tank and usually have 2 rangers or 2 sams destroy it lol..

You have to base your strategy on what you have. Some brds have that +5 ballad in salvage and if your rdm has AF2 hat,Mor/dal,TOAU ring, + sanction refresh I find it hard to run out of MP.

If you don't have all that I would say 3 people on a boss is the safe way to go..

[SamanosukeShiva]

6. If you are on Odin, ask Celestria for help and advice. She has the best working knowledge of Salvage of anyone I know.

way to bug him/her

[ringthree]

way to bug him/her

I know. LOL I pretty much threw her under the bus, but she really is awesome, loves Salvage and pretty much will discuss anything about it if asked. She is really cool.

[tymora]

Even with the dusty ethers, my group tethers on MP dryness in Arrapagos too. The first 2 lamias, while likely to drop magic, sometimes don't.

And MNK/WAR for Arra boss? Wouldn't that be a massive MP sponge on boss? Well I suppose enough healers would do the trick but a MR hurts with no shadows.

I give SJ to my MNK/NIN only because we do 1st floor Rampart + Sabotender frequently and depend on holy waters to get rid of curse. Even when we spend 40 min on 1F, we still get to exit with ~15 min after killing boss.

--------------------------------------------
As for iron laws of Salvage, there are a couple in my opinion - No group can break free from them:
1. Never go without a THF in Zhayolm and Arrapagos or you'll suffer from cell shortage.
2. Think fast, pass fast, lot fast and move fast. (This includes bringing stuff such as sneak oils and prism powders)

Anything else can be improvised and I agree that strategy and tactics should be tailored to your own group.