Star Wars: The Old Republic Random Question/Discussion thread - F2P

[Man0warr]

That's like saying it's "ok" to implement classes that have only have 1/3 talent trees for launch and where each class only has 1 ability available to them (that gets more powerful each level). But it's ok because it's only a stepping stone a few months after retail release everything class related will be available and fully balanced. But it's ok to release the game in this state to allow ppl to begin character progression. I mean, why not put it in when part of regular combat is already done and its better then not being able to do anything at all?

Yes, that is an extreme situation.

Blizzard literally did this with Hunters, Marksmanship was the only viable talent tree for almost a year. Remember Lacerate?

Game companies (especially for MMOs) will always release unfinished shit if they think they can get away with it and fix it later. They don't really have a choice, especially if they are trying to meet a release date - wrong or right, as long as they think they can fix it before it affects the majority of subscribers they will do it. This mostly pertains to endgame content but since MMOs are theoretically always in an unfinished state some shit has to give.

Not saying I agree with it but it's been happening for 12 years now in this game genre. Sony/EverQuest was especially bad about it, every expansion after Kunark the endgame was patched in later right before the raiders got to that point of progression. Or they didn't get it patched in time e.g. Rathe Council in Planes of Power.

[Katlan]

Yes, but w/e blizzard got away with, with WoW, 6 years ago doesn't stand up to today's standards. Your talking about an obsolete mechanic. If wow pulled that shit today w/a new mmo they wouldn't get away w/ it. They released wow in a market where mmo's where a small breed.

Try again

[Agito]

The space combat is like a minigame, it's the equivalent of something like Tetra master from final fantasy games. I think a tunnel shooter makes for a fine minigame, it's simple and definately doesn't need to be some extravagent, free flight space combat game where you fly through the universe shooting down evils that threaten the galaxy.

[Dantrag]

The space combat is like a minigame, it's the equivalent of something like Tetra master from final fantasy games. I think a tunnel shooter makes for a fine minigame, it's simple and definately doesn't need to be some extravagent, free flight space combat game where you fly through the universe shooting down evils that threaten the galaxy.

The only reason I bash it is because(I think) they mentioned that it was supposed to be a pretty big part of the game. It was supposed to be "huge". But then again, I could be wrong and it could just be a tidbit that was added in for extra smiles.

no they haven't. That was all rumors and other company's bashing Bioware. I believe the game has actually cost them somewhere between 30-40m+. But i agree w/everything else

http://www.vg247.com/2011/05/05/anal...on-to-develop/

No idea how accurate the article is.

[Man0warr]

Yes, but w/e blizzard got away with, with WoW, 6 years ago doesn't stand up to today's standards. Your talking about an obsolete mechanic. If wow pulled that shit today w/a new mmo they wouldn't get away w/ it. They released wow in a market where mmo's where a small breed.

Try again

They STILL do it, every single expansion has released in an unfinished state. Trion did it with RIFT. BioWare is about to do it and Blizzard will do it with their next MMO too. They have to have priorities on what is most important to be ready when their deadline comes up - a fleshed out space combat was never stated to be a core part of SWTORs gameplay. Even if it would be cool, it doesn't really fit in an MMO as anything but a minigame, because an actual space combat simulator would be totally out of place.

Spaceships in an MMO basically function as teleport spells in fantasy to get from one planet to the other. Even single player games where space combat would make more sense (Mass Effect, KOTOR) don't really have it either except as a minigame.

[Dantrag]

They STILL do it, every single expansion has released in an unfinished state. Trion did it with RIFT. BioWare is about to do it and Blizzard will do it with their next MMO too. They have to have priorities on what is most important to be ready when their deadline comes up - a fleshed out space combat was never stated to be a core part of SWTORs gameplay. Even if it would be cool, it doesn't really fit in an MMO as anything but a minigame, because an actual space combat simulator would be totally out of place.

Agree, technically every mmo and mmo expansion is unfinished. BUT the big difference is there is usually not a huge mechanical change in certain things. I don't think that we'll seem them expand on the controls of space flight beyond the rail system. I could be dead wrong but I don't see it happening.

[Elrina]

Even if it would be cool, it doesn't really fit in an MMO as anything but a minigame, because an actual space combat simulator would be totally out of place.

Spaceships in an MMO basically function as teleport spells in fantasy to get from one planet to the other. Even single player games where space combat would make more sense (Mass Effect, KOTOR) don't really have it either except as a minigame.

Why?

[Katlan]

I'm gonna laugh my ass off if Man0Warr buys the game and ends up no longer playing after a few months

[Elrina]

I'm still waiting for an answer from him, because I have every intention of ripping whatever argument he throws at me to shreds. There's absolutely no reason space exploration and combat would be out of place in a Star Wars MMO, if anything the very opposite, the lack of it should be considered out of place.

The only reason I see for it is because the devs are afraid. They copy/pasted WoW and went after this market for a specific reason, because they felt it was the most likely to succeed where the partial clones have all failed. But the only "innovative" thing they've done to it is add a "better story" and voice overs, nothing that actual matters to gameplay (and not even something that's going to be unique to this game).

The only excuse I can see for that is because they don't have enough faith in the creative ability of their game designers to add anything significant regarding actual gameplay that wasn't pulled directly from WoW.

[Man0warr]

I enjoy the game already as it is, if no one is playing a few months after release it's because Bioware failed to keep the content coming.

No MMO, no matter how well made, is enjoyable without friends/people to play with. Even the worst ones are fun if you do. If my people keep playing so will I, MMOs are just a medium to have fun with friends for me.

I'm still waiting for an answer from him, because I have every intention of ripping whatever argument he throws at me to shreds. There's absolutely no reason space exploration and combat would be out of place in a Star Wars MMO, if anything the very opposite, the lack of it should be considered out of place.

Out of place only because the mechanics of a zone (planet) based MMO don't mesh well a space sim. It would basically be two separate games. That's like saying EVE is lazy because you can't land on planets and do land exploration. I agree it doesn't make much sense to have a Star Wars MMO without more space based mechanics but that's all they have at the moment. Maybe they should of done an MMO based on Dragon Age aiming for the WoW players and then they wouldn't need space combat.

Not saying they couldn't make it work but they would have to have that as their goal when beginning development and it would take some innovation that to this point no one has managed.

Bioware went into this ~5 years ago aiming for the WoW market and developed their game accordingly. Maybe at this point that market is looking for something different than WoW with Lightsabers but it's way too late for them to make a change now, EA is breathing down their necks.

It still looks like there is significant interest in an online KOTOR game though, seeing as they have 500k preorders and counting, so some people obviously want more "story" and "voice overs" in their MMO.

[Katlan]

You still dodged Elrina's comment.

I find it fun to go and fourth w/ Man0warr, but then I get bored when I re-realize that he is one of the strongest whiteknight's this board has seen, even in the wake of XIV posters, and you will any evidence or piece of information to attempt to support his argument. Doesn't matter if its a piece of information from 6+ years ago, he will still go there and weight that as being relevant to today's standards

And how can you enjoy the game already as is when you aren't in the beta...?

[Man0warr]

I was in the last beta weekend, and this one upcoming. What do you mean?

Doesn't matter if its a piece of information from 6+ years ago, he will still go there and weight that as being relevant to today's standards

What are "today's standards"? Because every MMO that's come out in the last 6 years has failed. So any current "standards" are obviously invalid.

Unless you mean GW2's "standards", which you have no idea what they are because we are still a year+ out from that releasing and all you've seen are demo videos from some game cons.

[Elrina]

I enjoy the game already as it is, if no one is playing a few months after release it's because Bioware failed to keep the content coming.

No MMO, no matter how well made, is enjoyable without friends/people to play with. Even the worst ones are fun if you do. If my people keep playing so will I, MMOs are just a medium to have fun with friends for me.

Out of place only because the mechanics of a zone (planet) based MMO don't mesh well a space sim. It would basically be two separate games. That's like saying EVE is lazy because you can't land on planets and do land exploration. I agree it doesn't make much sense to have a Star Wars MMO without more space based mechanics but that's all they have at the moment. Maybe they should of done an MMO based on Dragon Age aiming for the WoW players and then they wouldn't need space combat.

Not saying they couldn't make it work but they would have to have that as their goal when beginning development and it would take some innovation that to this point no one has managed.

Bioware went into this ~5 years ago aiming for the WoW market and developed their game accordingly. Maybe at this point that market is looking for something different than WoW with Lightsabers but it's way too late for them to make a change now, EA is breathing down their necks.

It still looks like there is significant interest in an online KOTOR game though, seeing as they have 500k preorders and counting.

I'll start at the top.

I don't believe that it will be only dependent on whether or not Bioware keeps the content coming. I think the strict adherence to the WoW model with nothing innovative past the story will make a significant difference in population after the initial 30-90 days itself. They've likely waited till they had additional content in the wings to add over the short term anyway, and I agree that the content cycle is what will ultimately matter for the people who stick with the game despite it's policy of only maintaining the status quo.

But as to the aspect of friends and people we play with, I fully agree with you. That matters more than pretty much everything else, it's what kept me playing FFXI as long as I did. Basically just need to hope the group doesn't fragment over which game they want to play due to relevant features in each, since SW:tOR isn't going to have that much of a jump on it's competition.

There is absolutely no good reason for not including space exploration and combat in an interplanetary science fiction game based on the Star Wars universe.

There are a multitude of ways they could present space. Zones aren't limited to flat surfaces. Most of WoW can now be traveled through in flight, notable portions of Aion, and while I have no idea how much of SW:tOR allows for it, there isn't any reason they couldn't present zones outside of each planet to represent space, and treat atmosphere lines as zone lines.

Aion did 3-dimensional combat, even if the PvP wasn't very balanced. GW2 is doing it underwater, and changes the way each ability works to accommodate the location. I shouldn't have to explain how they could easily expand on the same idea to do it in space without having to drastically alter their combat system for it. Make adjustments for the environment and star ships, sure, but far from impossible.

Or they could, and could make it more action based, along the lines of TERA in space. It would let them attract that crowd, while still drawing the people who want World of Star Wars. It would take a little more work and some ingenuity, but it could be done, and probably be even better.

It is two distinct aspects of the same game. That's the issue here, not that it would be two separate games, but that it's two aspects of the same game and one of them is being left out (or at least, devalued to mini-game status). This is a science fiction game based on interplanetary travel as much as it is Jedi with lightsabers. How the fuck do you seriously leave out the interplanetary travel part? Did you watch the Star Wars movies?

Bioware went into this ~5 years ago aiming for the WoW market, sure. And they set out to create a more accurate clone than any that came before it, and that's their key to success.

Their demise is going to be the fact that they gave their developers and designers no creative freedom at all to add anything significant to the gameplay.

And there was significant interest in Final Fantasy XIV before it released too, that argument is already stale and used up. I expect SW:tOR to do significantly better than XIV did, but the argument is worthless in any debate other than how much money it will recoup for EA/Bioware from box sales.

What are "today's standards"? Because every MMO that's come out in the last 6 years has failed. So any current "standards" are obviously invalid.

Unless you mean GW2's "standards", which you have no idea what they are because we are still a year+ out from that releasing and all you've seen are demo videos from some game cons.

What? Why the hell do you think they failed? It wasn't because they didn't have potential, because most of them had a lot of it that they all failed to live up to.

Also, if you think we're seriously a year+ out from GW2 you're crazy. They've already stated that they are still on track for beta before the end of this year, and that they're planning on a shorter beta period. I expect it early next year, 1-3 months after SW:tOR / before TERA.

[Zerocool]

I think Katlan is one of the ones who actually played GW2 at one of the trade shows. And it's a lot closer to release than that, and probably closer to actually being a complete game than TOR is currently. Closed beta before the end of the year and probably a Q1 2012 release depending on how closed and open beta go. And GW2's standards are simple; a game designed around having fun with other people and not some endless, boring grind like most "AAA" mmos have been just to keep you subbed and keep the money flowing.

[Man0warr]

It'll have the same problem GW1 had then. Without the "endless grind" (or some equivalent incentive) there's little reason for people to keep playing at endgame, but I guess that doesn't really matter to ANet once they've gotten the box sale. So far only endgame I've seen for GW2 is WvWvW combat, which is cool if they can get it to work like the dynamic DAOC had, but that appeals to way less people than a PvE endgame.

[Agito]

I don't see how GW2 is supposed to be fun, especially since the game doesn't have any known endgame content and if there was then i'm sure the developers would've said so in an interview or something. If you take the endgame grind out of a mmorpg then you are also taking the entire endgame out of the game, the only thing left that is closely endgame related is PvP.

[Katlan]

Unless you mean GW2's "standards", which you have no idea what they are because we are still a year+ out from that releasing and all you've seen are demo videos from some game cons.

While not a lot of time w/ the game. I spent over an hr and 1/2 playing GW2 at SDCC. 2 classes, one mid level and one low level. And I can tell you that i had more fun in that hr and 1/2 w/ GW2 then I felt in any amount of time playing SWTOR. But yeah, that small amount of time w/ the game isn't anything to draw a real conclusion on. BUt, like I said, I had more fun playing GW2 in that small time than I have playing SWTOR for the 40+ hours I have put into the beta at various stages of beta

And lets keep in mind my GW2 experience is from pre-alpha.

GW2 is gonna have the tradition end game grinds, they just haven't publicly talked about that. There will also be smaller scale end game instances. The main difference is its flexibility and that class flexibility allows them to change up end game content to a different level.

edit: don't get me wrong. I enjoy SWTOR as an offline Bioware RPG. Its a fun ride in that respect. But its still the same old as any game. And what I learned from RIFT is that the pretty cover and new setting and effects don't do much in the long run because it always brought me back to the game I spent years of time in. I want something new that wants to do something... even a little bit, different

[vrumpt]

I don't see how GW2 is supposed to be fun, especially since the game doesn't have any known endgame content and if there was then i'm sure the developers would've said so in an interview or something. If you take the endgame grind out of a mmorpg then you are also taking the entire endgame out of the game, the only thing left that is closely endgame related is PvP.

This is the illusion that consumers are currently faced with. The illusion and fallacy that you need endgame for a game to be successful and fun. Arenanet is rewriting the rules, and endgame for GW2 starts at level 1. Try to wrap your mind around that for a minute.

[Agito]

This is the illusion that consumers are currently faced with. The illusion and fallacy that you need endgame for a game to be successful and fun. Arenanet is rewriting the rules, and endgame for GW2 starts at level 1. Try to wrap your mind around that for a minute.

Rofl, have fun with your level 1 non existant endgame content.

[Elrina]

Nice, we shift into discussing GW2 endgame instead of continuing on regarding the lack of creativity that brought about SW:tOR.

Like Katlan and Vrumpt both pointed out, they're attempting not only to change the way we play MMOs, but what we expect from them as well. Which is more than just an equation of "endgame" = A, "everything else" = B, and A > B in all respects.

They aren't focusing on the traditional elements of their endgame because they don't feel it's necessary. They aren't necessarily attempting to change the basic formula there, more so changing it so that the rest of the game is as much fun to play and take part in as the endgame. But when it comes down to it, we already know there will be max level large scale Dynamic Events that scale and reward everyone involved.

We know that there will definitely be instanced content, whether along the lines of raids or dungeons or both I don't know, because they've specifically stated that the Elder Dragon itself will be fought inside of an instance. And if there is one, the implication is there that there are other instances as well. But that isn't new content, and what they're about is telling us what they're doing that's new, not what's old.

Endgame is there, it's just not necessarily anything new. All we know about it for sure is that it won't be the same endless pursuit of gear with progressively higher numbers on it. They have higher aspirations, for both their game and the genre.

They're focused on telling us all of the things that we don't know, that are new and actually innovative in their game. The reasons we'll want to continue playing it as well as strictly endgame, because every day will be something different, will have something new to pursue, at every level.