Mysteries of the Mighty Barbarians.

[GRT]

You do realize you don't have to buy a single thing in the game, right? You could go by the normal way of finding it yourself. Alternatively, you could trade it for items of equal worth.

Exactly what are you upset about? That others might have an easier time acquiring gear for their characters because they choose to use real-life money instead of time?

Uh, no. I can assure you I make enough money in my day job that if I decide it's OK for me to spend real money in D3, that would make acquisition of gear a lot easier for me than a majority of others.

And like I said, as long as you are trading on either AH or with other people who are trading on either AH, you are subject to the exchange market. I think it's impracticle that you play a Diablo game without trading with anyone.

[GRT]

I think it's weird that how people choose to spend their money in a video game is a moral decision. Especially when it has yet to be seen that it negatively impacts those who choose differently in that same situation.

Did you not play WoW? If you didn't, did you not at least play FFXI? From what you know of how RMT suppliers operate, how is it not a moral decision that people should spend real world money on ingame wealth?

[Katlan]

btw - none of this is gonna stop (even a little) out of game RMT. It will still be just as strong to avoid real money AH fees and all that stuff. If anything, it will encourage RMT to take up the game in a stronger force then other titles

[GRT]

Blizzard has also got a lot of fire (probably well deserved) about being too lenient with gold selling in world of warcraft, well now they are going to guarantee the sales to avoid scams, and the same people still flames them for doing something :>

And really thought it may seem I'm defending blizzard I'm really not, its just every argument in this thread besides hacking has been weak.

I stopped playing WoW some time ago, so I'm not sure exactly how lenient they are with gold selling there. But since people are complaining that they are too lenient, doesn't that mean that people do NOT want gold selling? Which makes them being upset with a guaranteed sales rather logical, don't you think?

[Tajin]

btw - none of this is gonna stop (even a little) out of game RMT. It will still be just as strong to avoid real money AH fees and all that stuff. If anything, it will encourage RMT to take up the game in a strong force then other titles

I did said that.

[Correction]

Did you not play WoW? If you didn't, did you not at least play FFXI? From what you know of how RMT suppliers operate, how is it not a moral decision that people should spend real world money on ingame wealth?

FFXI's RMT problem was wrought by technical limitations and event designs that scaled very poorly. It's been a few years since I played but from an outsider's perspective both problems seem to be pretty much under control now that all anybody wants to do is earn in-game resources (currency, experience points, items) that are not so easily strangled out of circulation by a few monopolizing players. Ditto for WoW's design that makes it very hard/impossible to monopolize the most desirable game resources. No one tiny group of people can deny the majority = RMT's power is very limited to being effectively salt-miners, making the most money buying/selling extremely cheap and common goods in large volumes. If I buy something at the Blizzard Auction House the biggest impact is that some chinese guy beat you to a resource that will be there sixty seconds later. Hardly the Dalai Lama going headhunting, and not really a moral decision since they aren't breaking any rules.

[GRT]

You are arguing for the practicality of gameplay. You are saying it's moral as long as it's within the boundary of design and enforcement (which is not what morality means, btw), while I argue that the design and enforcement themselves are immoral.

[Correction]

I argue that the design and enforcement themselves are immoral.

"It just is" is not a strong case for why you think it's immoral, lol.

[Arcticfox]

This dual AH system sounds a lot like what they do in Maplestory. You can bazaar items for gold, or you can use the Auction House and pay for things with NX (nexon cash cards). System works and doesn't really favor one thing over another. I don't really see this being a game braking development guys...

[GRT]

"It just is" is not a strong case for why you think it's immoral, lol.

I didn't say "it just is," I said I argued that it is. My argument is in the past few pages and on Bnet, if you care to read them. Feel free to ask about what you don't understand. Or you can just take into consideration what reasons the majority of the online gaming community have argued with since the inception of the practice of RMT.

[Tajin]

Welcome to capitalism.

[Imitarate]

Not a lot to be said about the RMT system that hasn't been said, but there's one point to emphasize that I've seen come up a few times. Every player in multiplayer will have distinct loot drops; nobody else will see those awesome shiny super items that drop on your screen. They'll see their own shinies. The only way they can get any of yours is if you give it to them.

I've never played Diablo as an online game. I've played it multiplayer, using online interfaces, but Diablo's always been a single-player game to me. It's not like it's an MMO. So I suppose that's why I have an initially bad reaction to forced-connectivity. But there was a good point made earlier, that it's the easiest, least inconvenient anti-piracy method. I WOULD rather have this than most other methods they've come up with.

However, this view of Diablo primarily as a singleplayer game with multiplayer elements makes it quite a bit easier for me to ignore this RMT business. I don't care for it, the people I will play with don't care for it, so I won't use it, and neither will they. Closed circle.

[GRT]

Welcome to capitalism.

I'm fine with capitalism in the real world, I just hoped games like Diablo is my escape from it.

And I could go on to argue with you that RMT in D3 is not really about free trade but a virtual slot machine with all its randomization, now played with real world money, but I remembered you said something about not derailing the thread into a debate about real world economic theories and policies.

[Correction]

the majority of the online gaming community

Just like the majority of FFXI's endgame was so against botting or something.

My argument is in the past few pages and on Bnet, if you care to read them.

You mean this?

I'm assuming gold still drops from monsters as we kill them. And since they are worth real-life money(RLM), we are losing it whenever we are in the game and not killing monsters. While we are killing monsters, our equipments will be damaged, and we have to spend gold (hence RLM) to repair them. When we are purchasing potions, we will be spending gold (also RLM) to buy them. When we are upgrading our Artisans, we are spending gold or items-that-are-valuable-in-terms-of-gold (ala RLM) to do that.

in which you describe a situation that has existed in a black market since Ultima Online and a legitimized market since Maplestory (if not before that). And you're mad because somehow Blizzard has turned its back on your moral fantasy that 'the majority' of gamers universally reject this?

[Correction]

[Uzor]

Uh, no. I can assure you I make enough money in my day job that if I decide it's OK for me to spend real money in D3, that would make acquisition of gear a lot easier for me than a majority of others.

And like I said, as long as you are trading on either AH or with other people who are trading on either AH, you are subject to the exchange market. I think it's impracticle that you play a Diablo game without trading with anyone.

I don't understand what your argument is. From this post it seem to be that you are so against RMT that even being in the same party with a player that choose to spend their real-life money in a game is immoral. It seem your only argument is that interacting with someone that has bought stuff with RL money is immoral, and as such you hate the system for forcing you to play with people that may or may not buy stuff with RL money, despite the fact that that doesn't in any way force you to spend a single dime in-game to get what you want.

Yes, it's impossible to completely avoid the system. But that's not my point, my point is that you don't have to spend money to get stuff in the game. I don't see why that is a bad thing.

It is impossible to avoid RMT in any popular online game with any kind of player-driven economy. I'm sorry, but that's fact. So if your only argument is that it's immoral, you can't trade or buy anything in any online game in existance, as someone may choose to sell the earnings for real-life money, thus equaling the currency to RL money. Fact of the matter is, your logict is - in my honest opinion - moot and rather stupid.

[GRT]

Just like the majority of FFXI's endgame was so against botting or something.



You mean this?



in which you describe a situation that has existed in a black market since Ultima Online and a legitimized market since Maplestory (if not before that). And you're mad because somehow Blizzard has turned its back on your moral fantasy that 'the majority' of gamers universally reject this?

Haven't played Maplestory, so not sure what you are talking about. However, I have played FFXI and WoW extensively to get a proper feeling of how RMT is generally viewed through the eyes of the community. So please don't start lecturing me like I am some kind of outsider.

(oh and "majority" and "universally" aren't the same thing)

[GRT]

It is impossible to avoid RMT in any popular online game with any kind of player-driven economy. I'm sorry, but that's fact. So if your only argument is that it's immoral, you can't trade or buy anything in any online game in existance, as someone may choose to sell the earnings for real-life money, thus equaling the currency to RL money. Fact of the matter is, your logict is - in my honest opinion - moot and rather stupid.

It's also impossible to avoid botting, scamming, and other practices I consider immoral in not just any popular online game, but any aspect of a competitive environment. It does not mean that the authorities should lay off them just because it's impossible to beat them.

Seriously, I never expected D3 or the new Bnet would completely eliminate RMT or anything else, but I appreciated their qualities that Blizzard initially presented us with, that is to make their best effort to combat cheating.

Officially endorsing RMT is just the complete opposite direction, and I am highly disappointed.

[Correction]

However, I have played FFXI and WoW extensively to get a proper feeling of how RMT is generally viewed through the eyes of the community.

Uh huh. Your statistical methods are impeccable. People paying for items has been going on for years, and 'the community' that matters here is bigger than the ones that play only the games you have played.

[geno]

Nexon games are cash shop systems, not p2p as far as I know. I've only played DFO though, so maybe maplestory is a bit different. It was still an interesting system and didn't affect my gameplay too much until late in the game when the only marginal improvements that could be found took ludicrous amounts of gold or a lot of luck and money spent on NX.

Diablo's system seems much cleaner and more transparent, and as a purely peer to peer transaction system, is quite distinct in a lot of ways. There is one minor thing I have thought of though that trends away from a truly free floating exchange... We know about AH Listing fees for the real life AH for listing and selling (even ignoring the cash-out fee as what will most likely be a paypal fee for now), but what about the corresponding gold AH fees? If there are none, then anyone looking to profit should ostensibly work entirely in gold when selling items and then sell their profits in bulk to limit the amount of transaction fees they will be paying (the listing and selling fee are fixed, not % based). If there ARE corresponding gold fees however, then I am curious what effect they will have on the price of gold? If they make it fixed, it will suffer the problem of falling below or above the market rate for gold, encouraging players to work primarily on one market or another. If it is pegged to the current gold/dollar market rate, it would probably not change anything. I'm curious if blizzard has hired any economists or other business/finance workers to evaluate their system and look for problems.