Magic Damage Calculator

[frdrizzt]

You allow for a max of 35% from day/weather bonus, while d/w caps at 25% bonus regardless of 2x weather + day. Something that says if dwb>25% then dwb=25 would be needed to apply that properly.

[Suiram]

The cap is 35%.

[Bashfr]

Yes cap is 35%, and I applied it if dwb>35 (with 2x weather, day and sorcerer tonban)

[Kriz]

First of all, a big thanks for your improvement on all this.

Secondly, is there any data for the Banish/-ga/Holy line? I'd imagine they follow the same logic (though now that I say that, I recall the old "throw more MND on that Banish" logic).

Edit: Found this link which has some good old Gobli info:

http://www.killingifrit.com/forums/i...owtopic=167086

[Bashfr]

Hum yes i think i can make a formula with all that, have to take time to read it.

But what i quickly red said that MND doesn't work like INT for "normal" nukes

[Thorby]

Thought so, I remember there being a link on KI with info on it but was too lazy to go find it. I can find it again if there is still people saying otherwise (still lazy)

Yeah he did a lot more then that with me but that should be all you need because it shows me doing SBC damage on those imps with Stone I though Blizzard I since I was using the same INT they had. Since I dealt all the SBC damage, helix doing 25 damage should be enough proof that it reflects aero I not bliz I.

You can back track the SBC on helix even on level 0 mobs because it does not cap as quickly as the other level 1 spells, that is why young thought it did simalar damage as blizzard I.

On that note can someone explain exactly how the INT caps work? This needs to be in the calculator if it is possible since there is no way i can do 129 damage on 120 INT alone with stone I. He can not fully explain it how it works but he can say there is a point where you stop getting the full effect of INT to a point where it does not help at all. There is anther thread somewhere (currently looking for it) where I nuked imps under 110 INT for helix for the reason he wanted to see if I ever could get zeroed out in damage. the lowest I got was 2 with 74 INT ( my base with /whm) he said it had some decay effect right when the TIM goes negative. He could not explain how you get 2 damage when your 36 int under target but as I approached closer to 110 INT it was like the negative value was cut in half before added to the SBC. like if I did 100 INT the difference acted like it was -5 so I ended up with 20 damage.

here is the first thread he made regarding helix and the SS of me being under Imp INT to show the decay effect on the negative side.
http://killingifrit.com/forums/index...c=166362&st=40

[Suiram]

Hum yes i think i can make a formula with all that, have to take time to read it.

But what i quickly red said that MND doesn't work like INT for "normal" nukes

I believe Kirschy has the formulas for Banish and Holy, and used them in testing Slow potency. They are of the same kind (M*dMND + V). Also if you are going to keep adding more spells that aren't Elemental you could do the magical BLU spells as well, although those will require more inputs such as stats for secondary mods (used in calculation of V for those spells), player's level (for level correction on that term), and other applicable bonuses/penalties unique to BLU like monster correlation and Convergence. The formulas for them are worked out though and available on the appropriate BG wiki page, it's just a bit less clear to read unless you already know what it's talking about.

[Rena]

n/m ignore

[Thorby]

At a certain point above the target's INT, you gain half the effect from adding more INT, so for Stone I, you'd get 1 damage from 2 points of INT rather than 1 damage per point of INT. At 3x this difference, adding more INT becomes completely ineffective. This point is at whatever the next higher spell's base damage is; so Stone I has it's soft cap at 16 (Water I's base damage) dINT, and the hard cap at 16*3 = 48 dINT, Water I has the caps at 25 and 75 and so on.

For non-black magic, the caps seem to be taken from black magic spells; Banish and Banish II have caps at the same values as Water and Water II. Helices have their soft cap at 78, same as Thunder I.

What about if you are in negative? from what he found with my helix, is that normal to get the decay of /2 right when you are below the target's INT?

How far below do you need to be to be zeroed out completely? He thinks if you are double the spell base below the target with helix it does 0 damage like if you took 100 INT to kirin that has 150 INT. It was one of his arguments on why helix is not good on HNMs.

regardless of the theories be nice to show the decay in the calculator somehow. I don't know why you edited your post because what you said is needed to help make the calculator account for high INT over target. Thank you for telling me that soft cap for helix too that helps me understand more on what is going on with them.

[Bashfr]

I think is really too complicate to consider every soft cap and hard cap for every spells in the calculator ...

[Thorby]

I think the main ones would be to do the level I spells, I do not think there is any practical use of that outside those.

Edit to add a second thought:

IF normal nukes have a decay factor while negative like my helix did ( I have no clue personally), you may want to consider adding something like this for mobs like kirin where it is said has 150 INT. Most people would be hard press to hit that so having a detailed part of the calculator when you hit negative INT may be helpful.

If anyone here wants more testing like my past imp tests let me know what to test. It would be nice for some specifics what people want to see since I am hard pressed for free time.

here is the reason I dislike the helix part in the current state:
input 95 INT

Base damage : 31

Magic Attack Bonus : 0 %

Elemental Staff Bonus : 0 %

Day/Weather Bonus : 0 %

Target Magic Damage Adjustment : 0 %

Magic Burst Bonus : 0 %

Total Damage : 31 per tick in case of 50% resist : 15
in case of 75% resist : 7
in case of 87,5% resist : 3

what really happens:

95-110=-15/2 ( negative decay)=-7.5 +25= 17.5

and here is that SS of that cast(taken from a link i posted earlier):
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/d...LM/95total.jpg

It is kind of odd that the game rounds different in these situations, the only cast I can not make fit this pattern was my 74 INT cast where it did 2 and he can not even explain that one.

I had to to do a few casts to make sure they are not resists and as you see from the calculation quote even the resist outputs does not match.

if you need me to get more proof of this I guess i can go out and try 100 INT since I do not fully understand why the decimals round like that. From the past I do not think they round like that, maybe its logic? to round down in negative you go -7.5 > -8.0? no idea.

[Bashfr]

I'm not sure to understand what you said...

You mean that calculator display 31 instead of 17 ?

Or did you get a 50% resist, then calculator display 15 instead of 17 ?

[Thorby]

I'm not sure to understand what you said...

You mean that calculator display 31 instead of 17 ?

This, I have been trying to tell you I have did countless tests to show you young is wrong in his information. He was comparing level 1 spells VS helix and as you seen by someone else helix has a higher soft cap then aero I.

I even went though the math he did for you in that SS and I can show the other ones if you need it.

I even suggested putting in a decay factor since it appears to happen with helix as soon as difference of INT is negative.
like I said before I am not sure how that applies to normal nukes though.

[Acturus]

This was the answer I got when I asked about Helix formulas in the SCH discussion thread here:

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showp...&postcount=811

its roughly [(user int-mobs int)+25]*(user mab/mob mdb)*(nq/hq staff bonus)*weather*day
basically you need to stack int up for the best dmg. Keep in mind its a rewritten version of the real formula used but it's the exact same dmg running the numbers through both. I use this form to try and calculate helix dmg with int/mab and other variables and a back mob int checker using dmg of helix to get mobs int. (assuming it wasn't a resist, magic reduction from nm or mdb gets in the way)

/shrug

[Bashfr]

[(user int-mobs int)+25]*(user mab/mob mdb)*(nq/hq staff bonus)*weather*day

Is that sure last term is *weather*day, and not *(weather+day) ?


EDIT : about the base damage, some people tell me 46 and others 25. So what's the good one ?

[Thorby]

[(user int-mobs int)+25]*(user mab/mob mdb)*(nq/hq staff bonus)*weather*day

Is that sure last term is *weather*day, and not *(weather+day) ?


EDIT : about the base damage, some people tell me 46 and others 25. So what's the good one ?

I submitted my proof in 3 different threads showing it is 25, one of them I was not the person doing the testing.

Edit: MAB is last no? Rambus was using an outdated order for those I think, that part can be ignored. That is assuming you are looking at his number crunching along with Astura's quote.

I'm also going to go a limb and say that is a type-o for weather and day thing.

having a single real weather with weather buff acts like +25% then day makes it hit the cap of +35%

[flintyoungblood]

I've been going over your threads and the original damage formula again, and yes I see your point about the caps on int. I never included them in my original file because frankly... "some infection point" is too vague to base a formula on. however it is now my intention to rework the excel sheet I have based on this to attempt to account for it. since SE seems to like to 32 64 128 256 512 values I theorize the point at which int becomes half effective is 64, and caps at 128 above the targets int. I also have changed my formula to include the a critical difference, at dINT of <0 the mulitiplier of all spells , not the int factor, becomes 1. it actually solves a question, why on some mobs you can never seem to do more than half damage of what you would normally do. I always wrote it off to spell natural spell resists. I am still uncertain btw ram and thorby, if we can safely base helix on a seperate formula than normal elemental damage. if anything it may just be as simple as a higher int infection point, say 128 and 256, respectively. I do thank you for making me rethink the problem, but I remain unconvinced of the forumula. I disagree with your assessment that lvl 0 mobs are invalid for testing, I think we just need to account for the fact that our actual int difference with them is going past the infection point, and using them, we could nail down what that is on tier 1 and helix ^^

[Thorby]

I disagree with your assessment that lvl 0 mobs are invalid for testing, I think we just need to account for the fact that our actual int difference with them is going past the infection point, and using them, we could nail down what that is on tier 1 and helix ^^

There is documentation of helix being tested on level 0 mobs. the rest of your quote I do not even understand. I can however re link the tests done with helix on level 0 mobs.

http://killingifrit.com/forums/index...=120&start=120
http://killingifrit.com/forums/index...ic=166362&st=0

My test with ram included him using burn on it as me sch/whm to factor out MAB and know the INT on the mob is 1.

you are comparing 2 sets of spells one of witch has cap and decay of TIM (normal level 1 spells) to a spell that is not caped on TIM (helix) at 73 INT difference.Rena explained why those level I spells are caped and helix is not at this point of having 73 INT difference. you can not solve SBC on spells without considering that decay, so I not get why you think casting level 0 mobs with stone etc as valid tests.

again did you look at this post? this is a second reason I do not understand your thoery:

Originally Posted by Rena View Post
At a certain point above the target's INT, you gain half the effect from adding more INT, so for Stone I, you'd get 1 damage from 2 points of INT rather than 1 damage per point of INT. At 3x this difference, adding more INT becomes completely ineffective. This point is at whatever the next higher spell's base damage is; so Stone I has it's soft cap at 16 (Water I's base damage) dINT, and the hard cap at 16*3 = 48 dINT, Water I has the caps at 25 and 75 and so on.

For non-black magic, the caps seem to be taken from black magic spells; Banish and Banish II have caps at the same values as Water and Water II. Helices have their soft cap at 78, same as Thunder I.

wish I knew why he/she deleted that post, was insightful.

[Bashfr]

Helix base damage is now 25.

Don't have SCH, if anyone could make some test quickly...

[flintyoungblood]

I'm willing to concede the base damage simply because with the formula as it stands my calculation tool is nigh useless. what I propose is thru the use of level 0 mobs we attempt to determine what the soft cap is on helix so the calculator can do its job. the calculator would also be more effective if the soft cap could be found on each of the spells, stone I seems to have a much lower int cap than water I. if these caps are not added the results will never quite be right. adding finding and adding the hard cap on the spells past which adding more int is useles would be benficial as well.